PSIV: Beneath a New Light. (I'M BACK...with a bang!)

Discuss/post fan stuff (images, fictions, games...)

Postby Tanith » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:24 am

Since you've never been a fan (at all) of Chaz and Rika, I think it's a smart move not to include them in your game.

I liked Hahn as a character and would like to see him with some more development. Can't say the same about Gryz. Never cared for him.

Zio as a playable character could be interesting. When his character is stacked against other non-DF bosses in the series, he comes out pretty weak in badass comparison to the very recluse-but-heavy-handed ruler LaShiec and the shocking, mysterious Neifirst, so I can't say I ever cared for Zio. However, maybe something could be done to make his character more compelling if he was less of an overt DF lackey and more of a sneaky, double agent-type enemy.

Juza is extremely blah to me. I'd rather see other enemies be developed, honestly.

Doing more with Daughter would be cool, but it all depends on the execution. It would be nice to develop the story in such a way that the people of Algol aren't so goddamn allergic to technology by the end of the game.

A couple of constructive critiques:

The stat screen (with Rune pictured) is hard for me to read. Too many different fonts and overlays.

The title screen is very nice. Good job there.

This line: "the world in which we live in" is awkward to me. I would shorten it to "our world." Also, it's hard to judge because I don't know the whole context of the dialogue shown (I'm assuming maybe she's answering a question asked by Hahn?), but it's so dry that the witty sarcasm (assumed) is lost on me. She sounds annoyingly arrogant rather than just having a bit of fun with Hahn.

Oh, and you misspelled "commission" in that same bit of dialogue.
"I don't go to very many social events apart from fires." - carlsojos
User avatar
Tanith
Scorpius
Scorpius
 
Posts: 485
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:41 pm
Location: Landen

Postby Wing-0 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:53 am

lyla2284 wrote:Okay, you may continue with your trolling and flaming now.


"Trolling and flaming"... My, that's a nice way to come back. Allow me to applaud...

CLAP...

CLAP...

CLAP...
Image
User avatar
Wing-0
Dominator
Dominator
 
Posts: 1253
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 5:22 am
Location: Damnation Street, Cocytus City, Northwestern Hell, Inferno. >=P

Postby meteor9 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:39 pm

It does seem more and more like you really hate PS4 except for like four people in it and it's a bit confusing as to why you want to be doing a full retelling of it as a result. I mean, it's a lot different from hating PS3 and wanting to actually make a complete, non-empty version of it since with this it's mostly gutting major portions of the plot.

I know you're running under the impression that it's more 'yours' now, but it's still a PS4 fangame with PS4 characters and what's left of PS4's plot. I just don't see the purpose beyond unabashed Alys fangirling.

That said, I played the most recent demo from a month or so back, and in regards to the difficulty:

Way, way, WAY too grindy. There's hard (requires strategy and conservation) and then there's just annoying (attacks deal next to no damage, enemies take off far too much health and won't die and even if they do give no EXP whatsoever and since you only have two or three attacks it's not like the player is doing something wrong). I got to a point where I felt like I was being punished for daring to actually play through the game. I'd assume it opens up a bit when Rune shows up and hopefully can kill stuff, but getting to that point is a slog, takes much, much longer than in the original, and doesn't offer anything to make up for the added padding.

So, uh, long story short, rework the enemy balance and is there anything you DO like about PS4?
meteor9
Blastoid
Blastoid
 
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:58 am
Location: New South Wales

Postby Tanith » Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:03 pm

Meteor9 brings up a very good point. It's a little mystifying that you want to use characters from PSIV, during the time that PSIV takes place, but want to completely change the story, drop major characters, add bosses as major characters, etc. You have to consider the typical audience for your game. Chaz has always had a mixed bag of love/hate among PSIV fans, but I'd say Rika is very well liked by most fans, not to mention her character is more interesting than many of the others. By taking her out, telling fans she simply "doesn't exit," would be a disservice (and I'm not really a Rika fan).

At this point, why not make the plot completely separate of PSIV? I wouldn't even call it "Beneath a New Light" anymore. Showcase that it is what it is: An Alys game. Make it a gaiden. Call it "Phantasy Star: Alys's Untold Adventure," or something like that. Take her away from the plot of PSIV; make her go on a new adventure, maybe with Rune and Galf. They could meet up with a younger Zio; maybe he's not evil at this point. This way, people could go on to believe that the events of PSIV happen as they do in PSIV, but it will give you an opportunity to showcase Alys in her own game where she comes away as the ultimate hero.

I think that would appeal to fans more, honestly.
"I don't go to very many social events apart from fires." - carlsojos
User avatar
Tanith
Scorpius
Scorpius
 
Posts: 485
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:41 pm
Location: Landen

Postby Zucca » Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:28 pm

Tanith wrote:At this point, why not make the plot completely separate of PSIV? I wouldn't even call it "Beneath a New Light" anymore. Showcase that it is what it is: An Alys game. Make it a gaiden. Call it "Phantasy Star: Alys's Untold Adventure," or something like that. Take her away from the plot of PSIV; make her go on a new adventure, maybe with Rune and Galf. They could meet up with a younger Zio; maybe he's not evil at this point. This way, people could go on to believe that the events of PSIV happen as they do in PSIV, but it will give you an opportunity to showcase Alys in her own game where she comes away as the ultimate hero.

I think that would appeal to fans more, honestly.
You know... I've been thinking like this almost since this project was announced.

I believe fans don't like you changing the plot. Instead they want another story in the same universe.

I believe this is why Santa's game was so much appreciated. Sadly, it was never finished.
User avatar
Zucca
Neifirst
Neifirst
 
Posts: 1902
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:06 pm
Location: KUUSANKOSKI, Finland

Postby skymandr » Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:52 pm

On the other hand, the whole central idea of this project is a re-imagining of the PS IV universe on the premise that Chaz doesn't exist (or is at least not important enough to be noted).

Whereas your critique regarding the fan-response is fair (I myself am generally more interested in a stories that can in principle be fitted into the continuum...), I do believe that the project itself couldn't survive a recasting in the shape of a Gaiden, and more importantly (perhaps) that isn't what Lyla wants. The central question she wants to explore is (excuse me for putting words in your mouth Lyla, do correct me if I'm wrong in interpreting you intent!) "What would PSIV be like with Alys as the main character, facing the threat of DF and PD?" Giving Alys a grand role in her own epic adventure couldn't be fitted believably into any sort of Gaiden anyway, at least I don't see how (suggestions welcome!), so re-imagining the PS IV plot is perhaps the best alternative.
User avatar
skymandr
Scorpius
Scorpius
 
Posts: 331
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:59 pm
Location: Sweden

Postby Tanith » Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:16 pm

I'm just thinking in terms of what can be done reasonably with a fan game. It would be more reasonable to make a new adventure that precedes PSIV, in my opinion. I'm not saying Lyla doesn't have what it takes to completely redo PSIV with her own plot, but that is a huge undertaking.

If this game is meant to be mostly for Lyla, then she can do whatever she wants to, of course. I think the fact that she seeks out approval from the fan community, even here, means she's also looking for this to be a pleasing game for fans.

I can't speak for all fans or Lyla (of course), but when I weigh what I liked about PSIV against Lyla's reimagining, Lyla's ideas fall short for me. No offense to Lyla; it's great that she wants to do something with a character that dies early on in the game. I most certainly can appreciate that. However, all of the attempted executions of keeping Alys alive and have her go on to be the main hero of PSIV have not interested me. Maybe I'm set in my ways, or maybe I'm more of a fan of PSIV's story than I thought I was. This is why I think a gaiden would be a better fit for Lyla's game.

On a technical note, I don't think the battle system of PSIV really needs a drastic change. I'm assuming that with these RPG makers one can't mimic PSIV's system exactly. However, from meteor9's post, it sounds like Lyla's game differs significantly. I would suggest keeping it to what people are most familiar with.

Edited: I also want to say that my ideas as far as what is considered "epic" and what would make Alys out to be a "grand" hero might differ slightly with others'. For example, Ben Kenobi's last battle was to protect a new generation of heroes, not finish off the forces of evil. Just because he wasn't there (well, he was in spirit, I guess) to vanquish the Emperor himself doesn't mean Luke Skywalker is more grand a character than Obi Wan. In fact, Ben had this wonderful back story preceding episodes IV-VI (which Lucas mostly screwed up, but that's another thread).

This is why I think it would be more interesting to build up Alys's history rather than rewriting PSIV completely. Make people REALLY feel for her and her sacrifice to Chaz. I didn't appreciate it as much as I probably should have, because Alys wasn't a well-developed character by the time she died. Sure, she got more development than most other PS characters, but what could reasonably fit onto a 16-bit cartridge with extra memory still didn't give us enough of a glimpse into her past. All I knew is that she had some sort of history with Rune (not necessarily romantic, mind you), she was top dog at the Hunter's Guild, and she had taken Chaz on as an apprentice-type, seeing potential in him. She mostly annoyed me for the first part of the game with her bitchy attitude and constant manipulation of Hahn and Chaz. I didn't really like her until the group went back to Aiedo, where we learn about how involved in the community she is, that she's very well respected in the Hunter's Guild, and get a bit more insight into why she's stern with Chaz.

Aaand, that's my, er, five dollars on the matter of Alys.
"I don't go to very many social events apart from fires." - carlsojos
User avatar
Tanith
Scorpius
Scorpius
 
Posts: 485
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:41 pm
Location: Landen

Postby Wing-0 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:03 pm

My only qualm with the system is the grinding. One thing is a high difficulty because of strategy requirements and a completely different one is a spike in difficulty because of a high level boss relative to your characters' levels.

I'll put an example maybe most old school gamers can understand.

In the Megaman games, you start with a standard weapon, but have to think of which enemy to battle first. Your weapon is good, but not enough to beat most bosses easily. You need to use special weapons to beat most of them. You don't level up (not like in RPGs anyway), and your weapons ALWAYS do the same damage. Still, a weapon works against one specific boss. There are games that implement this, of course. In PS4, some bosses are weaker against certain techs. The game can be finished, even while being slightly low in levels relative to the final boss, it's just going to take more planning and strategy. That's different to a grindy game.

Most of the people who might play this game do NOT have the amount of free time to sit and level up like it may be required in the final game. Take me, for example. I still haven't finished PSO Episode 2. The farthest I have gotten is to the second Olga Flow fight. That is a grindy game for you, and that's my time availability.

I just can't find the time to play grinding games like I used to when I was younger. Also, if I find games that will entertain me, unstress me and most importantly, relax me, I'll go for those, instead of the grindy ones.

Teenagers do have the time, but most I know, and I know quite a few of them, when presented with a PS game, usually go like "Dude, that's so old..." or "No HD?" or "2D? No thanks" or even worse... "Heeeeey, I've seen that art before. Wasn't that chick with horns in a hentai with lots of tentacles?" Bizarrely, Yoshida's artwork resembles a bit that of an old hentai series I have forgotten the name of...

Yes, Yoshida's art style was quite standard...
Image
User avatar
Wing-0
Dominator
Dominator
 
Posts: 1253
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 5:22 am
Location: Damnation Street, Cocytus City, Northwestern Hell, Inferno. >=P

Postby The PS Logo » Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:13 am

No Chaz? No deaths? Awwwwww... I was hoping you'd use this in your game.
Image
User avatar
The PS Logo
Blastoid
Blastoid
 
Posts: 104
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:10 am

Postby lyla2284 » Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:46 am

Wow, that's alot of detailed comments. I'm wondering how to reply to these myriad of questions now.

-Firstly, yes, it is true that this is no longer a PS4 remake, and there have been alot of changes to the storyline, but I've kept in Zio, Dark Force ( that's blatantly obvious ) and added another boss. I'm saying it now already. The PD does not exist in this game.

Honestly, there are better ideas than a final boss that's "just evil with no motive for it but to destroy Algo". That's a complete and blatant cliche. I'm sick of them. In fact, PS4's entire storyline, if you look at it, is cliche.
There's nothing great about it's storyline. There's only ONE plot twist in the entire game. I could post the ideas I have for the entire game plot, and I showed it to someone who happens to be an excellent writer and definitely NOT a PS4 fan, so there's no bias there. And he loved it.

-Secondly, I am not changing my train of thought by making this game an adventure that solely focuses on Alys. There were so many characters in IV that had potential ( like Hahn, Demi and Wren ) but they were skimmed over and the game instead focused on Chaz and Rika... Whicjh is what most JRPGs focus on. The hero and his love interest. Uugh...

I may do another fan game that focuses solely on Alys and Rune, though. But that's a long way into the future.

-Thirdly, Rika should never have existed in the first place. Her DNA was supposed have died with both Nei and Neifirst when they killed each other. I.m.o, Nei is the only Numan of note. If Nei's DNA still existed, surely she could have been brought back, right?

- Zio's cult is no longer the comic-relief it was in IV. It has a far more deep-rooted purpose that trying to get everyone to worship Zio himself.

With regards to the game's difficulty. It is not hard people. The only difference is you can't mash attack like the player did in the original game.
But if it's as hard as PS2, then tell me. Because that came was hard, even though my characters never died...

But to cut a long story short. I know I'm not popular over here, but I just thought there'd still be some people who are genuinely interested in this game and take it for what it is...
And I have no desire to finish it any time soon. I don't know why I'm still busy with it after nearlt 2 years. But I think I know why most fan-games died.

They simply didn't get enough support and fans bombarded them with their own interpretations of how the game should be, according to them, and not the poor creator. Sad but true.

And it's happening all over again...

But I'm sticking to my guns. That's final. BaNL is popular on non-PS sites, so I'll make the game for those souls who are still interested in the game and take it for what it is.

Laters.
lyla2284
Blastoid
Blastoid
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:30 pm
Location: Walking on Mota.

Postby Wing-0 » Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:28 am

Jeez, will you drop the "I'm not popular" thing?

So WHAT if your ideas don't match the people you speak to?

So WHAT if you got negative comments?

So WHAT if your game and story are not what people like?

At least you keep your project, even if you advance with a snail's speed.

I'm speaking to you as one of the detractors of your story. I don't agree with you, I think your argument of why Rika shouldn't exist is meaningless when going through PS4's related materials AND Yoshida's ideas (he was the character designer and one of the people behind the story). You're still doing your thing and that should suffice.

Going back to your "I'm not popular", and the one that really irked me of "flaming and trolling" to which I "clapped", get that attitude off. If you wanna post, you're more than welcome. I'm sure there are other points where we might agree, whether PS or Off Topic.

I just think that clashing with people on a single topic has made you way too negative towards this place, when most of the chatter is actually not very PS oriented.

Just take it easy and don't take us, or at the very least me, all that seriously.
Image
User avatar
Wing-0
Dominator
Dominator
 
Posts: 1253
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 5:22 am
Location: Damnation Street, Cocytus City, Northwestern Hell, Inferno. >=P

Postby Tanith » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:55 pm

lyla2284 wrote: I could post the ideas I have for the entire game plot, and I showed it to someone who happens to be an excellent writer and definitely NOT a PS4 fan, so there's no bias there. And he loved it.
That doesn't sound neutral to me; it sounds biased in the opposite direction: That he doesn't like PSIV (like you). Correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway, please share your story ideas. You know I like writing, and you'll get better, more detailed feedback from me by sharing. I don't like getting little bits of incomplete information about your game; I'd much rather discuss what does and doesn't sound/feel right about your game when I have a much clearer idea of what your in-depth plans are. That is, if you still feel like sharing them.

And you don't have to worry about unwarranted negative critiques from me. Honestly, I'd heed Wing-0's advice. I might not blow glitter and rainbows up your arse, telling you, "OMG AWESOME I LUV DIS GAME, UR TEH BEST EVAR!" but do expect honest feedback from me. You should know me well enough by now that I'll do it in a rational, unbiased manner.

lyla2284 wrote:-Secondly, I am not changing my train of thought by making this game an adventure that solely focuses on Alys. There were so many characters in IV that had potential ( like Hahn, Demi and Wren ) but they were skimmed over...
Hm, okay, but when I look at your screen shots it looks like a mostly-Alys adventure. Again, perhaps by sharing more of your story I could see how the other characters fit in.

lyla2284 wrote:-Thirdly, Rika should never have existed in the first place. Her DNA was supposed have died with both Nei and Neifirst when they killed each other. I.m.o, Nei is the only Numan of note. If Nei's DNA still existed, surely she could have been brought back, right?
I could argue that some sneaky scientist from Nei's time hid numan DNA against the government's orders but didn't know about Nei's existence, since she was a surprise split from Neifirst, therefore the clone labs didn't have the DNA. Things are rarely black-and-white. ;)

lyla2284 wrote:- Zio's cult is no longer the comic-relief it was in IV. It has a far more deep-rooted purpose that trying to get everyone to worship Zio himself.
I think his ultimate goal was to annihilate all life, which I'm assuming meant his annihilation, too (I never really understood that, other than perhaps after he died he'd be a god or something), and that though his worshipers uttered things like "Save me Zio!" that the hook in joining the cult was that the end was near and they'd receive some kind of protection from Zio/DF, not that it was simply an all-out narcissism-fest for Zio. But anyway, more cult development could be cool.

lyla2284 wrote:With regards to the game's difficulty. It is not hard people.
I don't think meteor9 was speaking in terms of mere difficulty; he was saying it's too grindy with little reward. Really, as much as I like PSII and all its grindiness, it's because I grew up with PSII being my #1 RPG. I like savoring how long and laborious it is getting enough meseta/exp. points to get weapons/techs/survive the next dungeon. I doubt others really appreciate that like I do, and it's completely understandable. I'm more the anomaly than the norm. Don't suck the fun out of your game by making players grind so much. That style of RPG is a relic.

lyla2284 wrote:ut to cut a long story short. I know I'm not popular over here, but I just thought there'd still be some people who are genuinely interested in this game and take it for what it is...
I'm sure there's still plenty of interest here in your game. Again, I'll say listen to Wing-0. Don't be allergic to criticism, and know that over here you're simply not going to get the unabashed fan orgy of brown-nosing and ego-stroking that goes on at that other site. You're a smart enough person to ignore the blatantly rude comments, right?

lyla2284 wrote:They simply didn't get enough support and fans bombarded them with their own interpretations of how the game should be, according to them, and not the poor creator. Sad but true.
What kind of support are you looking for? This comment comes across like this: "shame on you for commenting on my game but not helping me." Feedback is help, and you should expect people to come in with their own ideas; that's just human nature. Don't bite the hand that feeds, m'dear. If you need a clearer idea of where I'm coming from in regards to your game, I can help by offering story suggestions, I can proofread script, but truthfully I'm really busy and don't have time to test your game. Don't take that to mean I'm simply admiring your game from afar and have no right to comment on it. I know nothing about coding, spriting, programming, etc. Few people do. Just keep that in mind, because it seems to bother you that you get feedback without some kind of magical "support." Feedback is support, and don't forget that people like me are good for getting word out about your game. I might not have enough time to be a tester, but I might know other people that enjoy new games who I'd be willing to pass your game along to. Word-of-mouth, FTW! If you're going to piss and moan about lack of "support," then people will lose interest in your game rapidly. You have to be a good saleswoman, don't forget. ;)

lyla2284 wrote:But I'm sticking to my guns. That's final. BaNL is popular on non-PS sites, so I'll make the game for those souls who are still interested in the game and take it for what it is.
Again, don't start out defensively. We don't need to hear how others find your game wonderful, as if no one here is interested in your game and we're all meeeeeeeeen for daring to give out critiques. Be willing to hear different critiques; I think it would improve your game over hearing constant praise. Forget what others said in the past here; start fresh. So far I think you've already received some great detailed feedback since you updated your thread.
"I don't go to very many social events apart from fires." - carlsojos
User avatar
Tanith
Scorpius
Scorpius
 
Posts: 485
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:41 pm
Location: Landen

Postby meteor9 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:54 am

lyla2284 wrote:With regards to the game's difficulty. It is not hard people.
Tanith wrote:I don't think meteor9 was speaking in terms of mere difficulty; he was saying it's too grindy with little reward. Really, as much as I like PSII and all its grindiness, it's because I grew up with PSII being my #1 RPG. I like savoring how long and laborious it is getting enough meseta/exp. points to get weapons/techs/survive the next dungeon. I doubt others really appreciate that like I do, and it's completely understandable. I'm more the anomaly than the norm. Don't suck the fun out of your game by making players grind so much. That style of RPG is a relic.


Actually I kinda am. Like, at the beginning, every monster can almost kill you in a few hits. They also dodge like crazy and have higher than normal HP. And you have...NOTHING in your arsenal to deal with it beyond just mashing attack since you're already out of TP after two fights and only have very few abilities to begin with.

Then you have to do this four more times just to afford staying at the inn.

Not to mention how ridiculously time consuming it would be to balance this out along with trying to upgrade your equipment. I wasn't kidding when I said getting from Piata to Birth Valley took almost four times as long as it used to.

I'm used to hard games. I'm a megaten fan after all and that's a series that absolutely loves wiping you out at any given moment. But that's only if you let down your defenses. Very rarely does it just kill you completely by chance. In BaNL, however, I feel like I'm just being prevented from playing the game.

So yeah, it IS hard. Not the right kind, either.
meteor9
Blastoid
Blastoid
 
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:58 am
Location: New South Wales

Postby lyla2284 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:34 am

If I was acting inappropriately in any way, then I apologize to all of you. Let it be noted that I was never targeting either of you guys in the first place and some of you may have just taken it the wrong way. I'll drop the whiny act and just try to focus on my game.

So, I apologize.

@meteor9: If the game is too hard, then I'll balance out the enemies for the next release. Plus, Hahn starts out at level 4 now, so he has Wat. It should make the game easier.

@Tanith: I'll send you a PM with my ideas for the game. It contains alot of spoilers, that's why I'd rather not post it here. And yeah, you're right about Gryz. Seb (you know who I'm talking about ) and I have been racking our brains to make Gryz a more interesting character, but he's just so... mediocre that nothing can really be done about him apart from wanting to rip Zio from limb to limb... Then again, every game needs a one-trick pony.
lyla2284
Blastoid
Blastoid
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:30 pm
Location: Walking on Mota.

Postby Tanith » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:23 pm

meteor9 wrote:Then you have to do this four more times just to afford staying at the inn.

Oh my. That's a problem, but it looks like Lyla's addressing it in her post.

Edited: Why not delve into race relations with Gryz? Instead of the Motavians being the jawa/ewoks (jawoks?) of Phantasy Star--which implies they're there to make the kiddies laugh and have other "awww, cute" Disney moments--make them more intelligent creatures. I don't mean change them physically, I mean, take their personalities so that they're not simply gossiping junk hoarders. You can still do the revenge-thing with Gryz (why not? It's a familiar trope), but have him meet up with the group by other means rather than, "Duuuuh, okay, Dorrin. Gryz take purdy lady and fwends down to basement for happy magic liquid. *after getting alshline* HAY GUYZ, Gryz come along and smash, too?"

Why not make him the one who knows where to get alshline, but he's reluctant to help Alys & Party because of deep-seeded racial problems between Palmans and Motavians (maybe there was a lot of Motavian/Palman feudalism during the Great Collapse)? He only grudgingly agrees after realizing they have a common goal. He could also provide useful insight into other areas of the planet. Let's say Motavians are still the great recyclers of Motavia. Okay, so maybe he knows the landscape really well from his years of treasure hunting. He could be the one who knows about certain underground passageways, etc.
"I don't go to very many social events apart from fires." - carlsojos
User avatar
Tanith
Scorpius
Scorpius
 
Posts: 485
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:41 pm
Location: Landen

PreviousNext

Return to Fan stuff

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron