Motavia and Palma switched orbit?

[etony33]

I never noticed this before...in the instruction manual for PSI, it describes the Algol Solar System as follows: (page from the manual attached). Anyway, it shows Motavia being closest to the star, followed by Palma, and then Dezoris.

The Phantasy Star II title screen, which is familiar to most (if not all) of us, appears to show Palma being closer to the star than Motavia. Also, in Phantasy Star IV, the asteroid belt where Palma used to be is eerily similar to Motavia's orbit in the PSI instruction manual. Motavia is also described as the "second planet", meaning Palma would be the first. So...did they actually switch orbit? If so, how?

[Tryphon]

Yes they did. I think it's explained at Paseo Central Tower IIRC (in PS2).

[etony33]

In the library, you mean? I just checked and didn't see it there. It's definitely interesting, though.

[BenoitRen]

Nothing is said about it in the games, but the Compendium does refer to an event known as the Conjunction happening in AW 843:

The "Conjunction", the alignment of the three planets, occurs. Due to gravitational interference, the orbits of Parma and Motabia are shifted, and cities are annihilated. Thanks to the Earthmen, the escape shuttle containing the remaining members of the ruling class is destroyed, and the Landeel bloodline appears to be wiped out.

More recently, the official Japanese website explains that it only looks like the orbits have switched due to the viewing angle.

[etony33]

Hmm...that's interesting. Of course, from what I understand, there are a number of differences between the English and Japanese versions of the games. I often wonder if it is intended to be that way, and if events that are explained in the Japanese version are not canonical in the English version, and vice versa. Some differences, like the piano teacher in PSII, who's name eludes me at the moment, saying "he looks smart" rather than "he looks cute" in the English version, can be attributed to censorship, and have no real bearing on the actual story. Of course, since I do not speak Japanese, I don't know ALL the differences between the two versions (and I probably don't even know most of them), but I have read in multiple places over the years that the differences are pretty profound between the two.

So, if they did shift (or appeared to shift, that seems to contradict itself), then Palma would have replaced Motavia in causing the eclipse. Once Palma was gone, would that not make it so that Dezorians could no longer light new eclipse torches, since there weren't any more eclipses?

And if the orbits only APPEARED to shift, why is Motavia referred to as the "second planet" in PSIV?

[Tryphon]

For the translations issues, two things :

* translations of games of this era were often, er, not really accurate, to say the least (I don't know if this is the case here though)

* there are spaces issues in the ROM : for PSII for example, a text piece is at most 256 characters, and a dialog can contain as much as 2 or 4 (still need to check) text pieces. And if you want to use more pieces than the japanese version does, you have to change the game code, so I suspect the translator did not go to that. Since English is much more verbose than Japanese (not to speak French), the translations had to be less precise.

And to look for 'canonical' in Phantasy Star is as almost as pointless as for Star Wars, for example.

[etony33]

Well, in cases like the Dark Force thread, where the word "Dark Farusu/Dakrk Force" was translated as "evil" in the Earthmen's speech, it makes a HUGE difference. And that can't be explained by just the decreased space available in English, since "Dark Force" only takes up six more characters than does "evil". Something that important would have taken precedence over, say, leaving in an adverb and changing it to "evil" because it is shorter. Which brings us back to my original question: should the Japanese and English versions be regarded as two completely separate stories, should the Japanese take precedence since it was the original version, or should the two be somehow reconciled?

[skymandr]

Ah! This reminds me of the good old days, over at PSDB (phantasy-star.net, for those who remember!). =) There were two camps who discussed this at great length! Maxx (the owner of the site) and Mike, two of the leading experts on Phantasy Star at the time I would argue, were both invested in the English canon-theory. See for instance http://www.phantasy-star.net/psu/psu.html which is their attempt at a unified (English) canon. A major point of conflict was the "Noah is not Lutz" argument: in the Japanese canon, it is clear that Lutz is the same person in PS and PSII, while this is not the case in the English version. Another was the time for PSIII, which differs by 1000 years between the English and the Japanese. Good times!

Personally, I'm in the Japanese canon camp, and I regard the English version as a translation, not a separate story. Translations are tricky... =)

[etony33]

Well...I am new here, but have been playing these games since I was three. I made my preschool teacher call me Odin rather than Tony. No bullshit. So forgive me if I haven't seen these same topics on this board before - they have just been unanswered questions in my head for many years.

[etony33]

And Alex Hossan...THAT'S who Alex Hossan is. When Damor the Soothsayer mentioned him, I always thought it was some sort of pop culture reference that I didn't get, to both add a bit of humor and portray Damor as being out to lunch. But that makes sense.

[BenoitRen]

Ah! This reminds me of the good old days, over at PSDB (phantasy-star.net, for those who remember!). =)

*shakes cane*

A major point of conflict was the "Noah is not Lutz" argument: in the Japanese canon, it is clear that Lutz is the same person in PS and PSII, while this is not the case in the English version.

The only difference is a name change, isn't it? How this gets understood as an entirely different person despite him sharing the same name in the originals boggles the mind.

Personally, I'm in the Japanese canon camp, and I regard the English version as a translation, not a separate story.

Same here.

So forgive me if I haven't seen these same topics on this board before - they have just been unanswered questions in my head for many years.

That's okay! Discussion is good.

And Alex Hossan...THAT'S who Alex Hossan is. When Damor the Soothsayer mentioned him, I always thought it was some sort of pop culture reference that I didn't get, to both add a bit of humor and portray Damor as being out to lunch. But that makes sense.

Hossan? You mean Ossale? That actually is a reference, but not to popular culture. It's a reference to Ossale Kohta (Kotaro Hayashida), the designer of Alex Kidd. There were several developer self-insertions in the game, but only one survived the English translation: Gamer Miki.

[etony33]

Hossan? You mean Ossale? That actually is a reference, but not to popular culture. It's a reference to Ossale Kohta (Kotaro Hayashida), the designer of Alex Kidd. There were several developer self-insertions in the game, but only one survived the English translation: Gamer Miki.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

[etony33]

Regarding Lutz and Noah not being the same person, Rune says in PSIV something along the lines of "the first generation Lutz fought Lashiec". That's proof enough for me. I wish the translators of PS2 and PS4 had left well enough alone and continued to call him Noah, but oh well. Maybe Noah was a middle name, or a nickname.

[BenoitRen]

Regarding Lutz and Noah not being the same person, Rune says in PSIV something along the lines of "the first generation Lutz fought Lashiec".

Yes, but Lashiec came back in Phantasy Star IV. So the "Noah is not Lutz" camp figured that Lashiec must have come back before, at which point the person we see in Phantasy Star II fought him.

Of course, the "Noah is Lutz" camp thought that was too farfetched.

[etony33]

Yeah, that seems very far fetched, especially since he says that the first generation Lutz and his companions fought him in the Air Castle.