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[Benoit]

<blockquote>Yeah, okay, games where you rape women are great, right? No... of course not. That's sick. If you're even contemplating raping someone, you've got problems. That's unhealthy.</blockquote><br>How is that any more sick than murdering people with a chainsaw with blood all over the floor? I don't find games where you rape women great, but if some people enjoy that type of game, more power to them.<p>Or has violence suddenly become acceptable for some reason? So I'm going to rape women if I play games where the protagonist does so? Am I going to hunt people with a chainsaw if I do so in GTA?<p>Of course not.<br>It's not real, and we can make the difference.<br> <blockquote>Love is meant for people, not a set of electrical parts. Excersize is a little different, Benoit... which, by the way, I get plenty of. Do you want to compare that aspect of our lives?</blockquote><br>Whoa, you think people who play these games actually fall in love with the girls? You've got the wrong idea. It's just entertainment, just like we don't really want to kill people when we play violent games.<br> <blockquote>Not really... I'm not looking down upon you, I'm just saying that the brunt of the Bishoujo genre (at least from what I've experienced) is sex based, which you don't seem to want to admit.</blockquote><br>Notice the underlined part.<br>I'm not going to admit something that I know 100% sure isn't true.<br> <blockquote>Don't you think those are a little selective? I'm sure we could find some graphic scenes from Bishoujo games you know.</blockquote><br>Of course we could. I didn't deny that.<br> <blockquote>However, it just annoys me when Benoit isn't willing to admit that the brunt of the of the market is based on sexuality. Oh, in the West, says he. First: since when can you read Japanese?</blockquote><br>I can't. But I know the genre for over a year now, and several people who also like story-focused bishoujo games and do know Japanese and its market can tell me that.<br> <blockquote>Second: if the West is so disgusted with that sort of thing, why is the focus of the Western Bishoujo market placed in that "disgust"? That doesn't add up.</blockquote><br>I've already explained above, but you yet again failed to read that. Let me quote it for you:<br> <blockquote>In the West, bishoujo games are still a niche market, so the games we see translated are only a tiny portion of Japan's bishoujo games. And because the genre is so low-profile here, many of the games we get aren't that great. The licenses for good, popular games cost a lot of money, and 99% of the time the companies don't even want to allow their games to be translated.</blockquote><br>Let me clarify further. Games that are less popular (and thus most of the time a bit crappy) are cheaper (see: affordable) to license.<p>Additionally, the sex-romp games seem to sell better than the story-focused games, which is sad.<br> <blockquote>The majority of the games end with a sexual scene between the main char and the girl he picks up.<p>That is a known fact. It is also a true fact.<p>I don't see why Benoit can't admit that aspect is true.<p>Sure there are some that aren't sexual.. But the majority are played just to get that one scene.</blockquote><br>So let me get this straight... You're saying that people who play these games for hours to get an ending do so just to get the final scene, which isn't always a sex scene?<p>Yeah, right. The perverts aren't that dumb. They look for either the CG pack, or a hacked save game.<br> <blockquote>Why the hell do you think Sim Girl is so popular on newgrounds? They want the NUDE scene!</blockquote><br>In the first versions, there was no nude scene at the end. How ironic, since the game was most popular when it didn't, and now you barely hear of it.<p>You're also branding all the people who play these games as perverts, which is not true, and not the point here.

[LaconianShot]

<blockquote>How is that any more sick than murdering people with a chainsaw with blood all over the floor? I don't find games where you rape women great, but if some people enjoy that type of game, more power to them.</blockquote> <br>What the hell? That's sickening! I don't advocate games with extreme off the wall violence and neither do I advocate games where you rape women. That fantasy is only nurturing unhealthy desire. I'm not saying violence is that much different, but I believe that it's much easier to leave as in the game, whereas if you're getting sexual pleasure from these games, it'd be much harder to leave in the game.<br><blockquote>Of course we could. I didn't deny that. </blockquote> <br>Then why the hell did you show the damn pictures? Where's the tasteful comparison? That's useless! You want me to find the tamest screen cap in GTA:VC? Okay, I will, and then we can find the most graphic picture in one of your Bishoujo games, and that's about as tastful as your comparison. How biased... you can't compare apples and oranges. omfg ur sorsez r byassed!!!!!!!!11 </Benoit><br><blockquote>and several people who also like story-focused bishoujo games and do know Japanese and its market can tell me that. </blockquote> <br>Yeah, well, uh... ur sorsezz r byassed cuz u got it from sum deude hoo lieks b15h0uj0 t00!!!!111<p>Well, I'm going to end this, simply because I won't be here to argue for the next 4 days. Basically, Benoit won't admit that many Bishoujo games are based on graphic sexuality. Hey, I don't care, but Benoit insists on splitting hairs and mincing words.

[Benoit]

<blockquote>What the hell? That's sickening! I don't advocate games with extreme off the wall violence and neither do I advocate games where you rape women. That fantasy is only nurturing unhealthy desire. I'm not saying violence is that much different, but I believe that it's much easier to leave as in the game, whereas if you're getting sexual pleasure from these games, it'd be much harder to leave in the game.</blockquote><br>That's only your opinion, and it's not necessarily so. I mean, a game is a game.<br>No matter what's in the game, if a person can make the difference between reality and fantasy, there's no problem.<br> <blockquote>Then why the hell did you show the damn pictures? Where's the tasteful comparison?</blockquote><br>*sigh* I invite you to read my posts, instead of skimming through them. It was a post of AG3 that I quoted, comparing how most gamers these days think when it comes to violence and love/sex in games.<br> <blockquote>Yeah, well, uh... ur sorsezz r byassed cuz u got it from sum deude hoo lieks b15h0uj0 t00!!!!111</blockquote><br>Look man, it's simple.<br>I played Brave Soul. I know what love and sex is. Thus why would some site's view be more right than mine? Sites can make mistakes and/or misinform too, no matter how credible the source. And we both know that most people are prejudiced against this genre. You want an example? Well, look no further than yourself. You've played no games of the genre, yet claim to know the market.<p>Would it be different if I got a Japanese native in here (who speaks English and plays the games) that would confirm my points? I would think that would be a very credible source.

[Benoit]

Got a reply from him, nudging me to use his long posts that explained the history of the genre that he posted before.<p>Time to get educated, folks!<p>Chapter One: the dawn of the era<p>Chapter Two: Visual Novels<p>Chapter Three: "Crying games" hit the standard<p>Chapter Four: Importation of such games into Console Consumer Market<p>Chapter Five: Ero-games becoming Anime

[AG3]

If people read the links Benoit has posted, they'll learn the origins of these bishoujo games from a native Japanese. I thought I'd post my own take on this as well, seeing as Benoit used one of my posts from a different "games vs. ero-games" discussion. It might be a bit on the long side as verbosity is a slight problem of mine <p>Hello, I'm a 25 year old Norwegian male, who's been playing video/computer games in some form or other for 20 years now. I play games from about every genre (except maybe sports and flight sims). This includes bishoujo games, both regular and the infamous "hentai" ero-games. I've played and own many of the ero-games released in English, and a handful of Japanese (untranslated) ones as well.<p>I'm not quite sure why ero-games always spark such heated debates. I would probably contribute it to the fact that people often generalise what bishoujo games are about, and often speak based on things they've heard from others rather than trying to look into the subject on their own and form an opinion based on what they experience. Sure, you can get a lot of truth from what others tell you, but it will often be biased, simplified and very one-sided. I could probably write a full novel just about what I have personally experienced, but I'll try to keep it a little shorter than that <p>My first experience with ero-games was in the late 90's or early 2000, I believe. I had found a foreign website offering "hentai games", or "Juegos hentai", and not understanding what they were, I downloaded a game called <b>Immoral Study</b> (which was in English) and decided to play it. Well, I was in for a surprise... Basically, you play a private tutor with a reputation for helping students improve their grades immensely. This tutor has an ulterior motive though, which is getting his young female students to bed (always consensual, though a bit... roundabout). It took a few tries before I got to that point without being found out by the old maid/chaperone in the house, but the resulting scenes were a new experience in gaming for me, to say the least. It took maybe 30 minutes to play through it from beginning to end (not counting the various game-overs I got), but for a guy coming from the mainstream games where even hints of nudity were unheard of and swearwords censored (when they appeared at all), this was truly something new. Games and porn combined in one! How lucky could you get!? :p %)<p>I tried loads of the English games on that website in the months after that. Some were good (by the standards I had then), a few were great, the rest were... frankly, disturbing and/or disgusting as hell. One of the great games for that time was <b>True Love 95</b>, a high-school romance simulation game, complete with stat-building, chicks, love, intrigues and sex. Great stuff. Another was <b>Seasons of the Sakura</b>, another high-school romance game with a more linear gameplay, but more "storytelling", and less sex (only once per playthrough). Very romantic, and it could surely have been released without the adult scenes and still be good, though I prefer them to be there. A third title was <b>Divi-Dead</b>. This was a story which seemed like it was inspired by a Lovecraft novel, a great occult thriller with some really freaky (non-sexual and sexual) incidents. The plot was deep but also a bit hard to grasp completely.<p>What I liked the most about these games (and still do) was the fact that they didn't try to pretend that sex didn't exist in this world. Sex is far more natural than killing in the modern world we live in, yet nearly every type of media try to pretend like violence is the most natural thing in the world, and sex is something you don't talk about. It's completely wacked that games advocating love (with consequent sex) are a hidden niche, while advocating murder, hate and violence is fully accepted (ok, there are vocal groups that don't accept violence in media either, but those aren't the ones usually playing them). And if you can accept extreme violence in "normal" games, what's so sick about games with violent sex? I don't like games with rape, but I can't accept hypocricy claiming that violence is okay as long as the media it's in doesn't include sex as well.<p>I've been toying with the thought of atoning for my "sins" of murder by finishing the storyline and sex scene for one ero-game girl per person I've killed in violent games (make love, not war and all that). Last session with Master of Orion I killed a couple of billion colonists, so I'll probably be playing ero-games until I'm 2714 years old. Hopefully Virtual Reality technology has come so far by the time I'm 100 that the experience is near impossible to disinguish from real life :p <p>Continued next message, guess I got too verbose (I warned you! )<br><p>[size=small][Edit by AG3 on [TIME]1111960883[/TIME]][/size]

[AG3]

But enough of this. About the English market for ero-games: Yes, there are a lot of titles that focus on just sex without any storyline (even the old freaky translated ero-games mostly had proper storylines), or a poor excuse for a storyline. That's the market speaking, quite frankly. Ero-games are a niche market, and serving niche markets isn't very profitable. Thus you need to keep costs down, and that is easiest accomplished by getting titles that are cheap to translate (short/simple storylines) and have low licensing costs (the original Japanese creators want royalties). There are titles that deviate from this template, really great ones too by western standards, but they sadly don't sell noticably better than the short & cheap ones. Even if they do, the increase usually isn't enough to cover the costs of the increased translation work and increased licensing/royalties. And let's face it; a lot of people WANT short sex-romps that have near-zero (almost sub-zero %) ) gameplay. Not everyone has hours to spend on gaming every day (least of all in Japan where the average salarymans working hours + commuting time is way above what's even close to normal here). Some people like their games simple, and more power to them. But when the number of paying customers (pirates' opinions don't make a difference here) who want the more interactive and diverse games aren't enough to make a noticable difference, you get stuck with the stuff that the majority pays for. Companies serve the market that can keep them alive, and the market has spoken. It wants simple sex-filled adult boshoujo games, and that's what it will get, regardless of how much the minority wants it otherwise.<p>Still, we get the occasional game that really caters to those of us who like the sex in games but prefer to get it mixed with a heavy dose of good storytelling or gameplay, so that it ends up as a pinch of spice instad of the kilo of pepper that was dropped in the dish during cooking. Games like <b>Kana - Little Sister</b> and <b>Crescendo</b> show how you can make adult bishoujo games with moving stories that touch people in a way that catch them completely off-guard. They might not suit people who can't sit still and read without getting heavy sedation first though. All ero-games/ adult bishoujo games/ hentai games are NOT just mindless sex romps, even though those are overrepresented in the English market. To say that would be like saying that everyone who posts on message boards are freaking morons, just because many are (some of the GameFAQs boards are chock-full of them).<p>As for the whole discussion of how people who play these kinds of games are sick people who'll likely assault anything on two, four or six legs any time now, I'm not going to get into that. Seeing as G-Collections and Peach Princess still have paying customers outside jail and no news pertaining ero-game related rapings have appeared in the western world (as opposed to videogame related shootings), I think it's a safe bet that we aren't mindless sex-criminals even after playing several of these games.<p>I would urge eveyone (of legal age, of course :p ) to try Kana - Little Sister before trying to generalise about what ero-games are and aren't. Not everyone will like it, that I know very well, but it will at the very least give you some perspective. Unless one enters it with a closed mind determined from the very beginning to discriminate and dislike it. Those kind of people can't be convinced by any discussion, and are best left to listen to their own unenlightened ramblings in solitude.<p>If you actually read all that rambling you have my most profound respect , and gratitude for listening.<p>Oh, and hi Benoit! <p>*Edit*<br>About the post with pictures that Benoit quoted: It was a post I made on a different message board in direct reply to a person who said something like "If you're playing hentai games you're sick. Play some REAL games instead" then named a few games. That post uses very selective pictures because it shows that you CAN'T generalise games, not even ero-games. Certainly there are ero-games with content I'd expect sane people to stay far away from, but the same goes for "normal" violent games. Those two pictures illustrate how wrong it can look to stamp the players of "real" games as normal and the players of ero-games as sick. Again, generalising is bad.<p>[size=small][Edit by AG3 on [TIME]1111961393[/TIME]][/size]<br><p>[size=small][Edit by AG3 on [TIME]1112361659[/TIME]][/size]

[Lord Khyron]

I will end this argument with one word from Benoit.<p> <blockquote>Not all games are sexfests. Most of G-Collections are, though, which is sad</blockquote> <p>The people here are saying that the MAJORITY of Bish games are sex fests.<p>Benoit agreed to it, then he took it back.<p>Double standards?<p>

[ThePeaGuy]

That was two of very long but very educational posts you've done in regards to the bishujo genre, AG3. Kudos. <p>Welcome to the forums. <br><p>[size=small][Edit by ThePeaGuy on [TIME]1111960558[/TIME]][/size]

[AG3]

Thank you very much <p>I can't guarantee I'll be a long-term resident, but I'll try to make my presence here meaningful.

[Benoit]

The people here are saying that the MAJORITY of Bish games are sex fests.<p>Benoit agreed to it, then he took it back.<p>Double standards?

<br>Not double standards. Double markets. English and Japanese.<p>EDIT: Hi, AG3! Welcome. <p>[size=small][Edit by Benoit on [TIME]1111963972[/TIME]][/size]

[Monocromatico]

Great posts, AG3. I remember I played True Love once. Funny game with great art work that is basically beautiful but non erotic - sometimes you get to see panties or bikini, but it doesn´t get vulgar. There are sex scenes - and sex was the final goal - but building up your character to cause different reactions from the chicks was kinda interesting. Not disgusting at all, the sex was not bizarre nor anything, just sex - static and undefined anime pictures, not even an animation.<p>I made my character act like an asshole. But it led me to pick up the wrong girl in the end :^P<p>You can have sex-based games without vulgarity. You can also have vulgar games without sex.

[LaconianShot]

A good post, AG3, and for that, I can say that I understand your point of view. Hey, I never said Bishoujo games were bad. I was merely annoyed that Benoit isn't willing to call a spade a spade... twisting and mincing words makes no difference, Benoit.<br><blockquote>I know what love and sex is.</blockquote> <br>Benoit, I rarely use this but I think the situation calls for it: LOL

[AG3]

It's kind of funny when I think about it though. I like GTA Vice City, I find it strangely amusing to steal a car and run random people over, performing insane stunts and go gung-ho with heavy weapons. On the other hand, I can't stand the ero-games where the cute girls suffer various bad things, maybe because they aren't as anonymous as the generic infinite-spawning people that fill up Vice City.<p>But If the situation wasn't like that, and I actually liked dark rape-themed games too (because there ARE a lot of people who buy those too), I can imagine the following the following session at a shrink:<p><b>Me:</b> "Doctor, I like games were you steal cars, commit crime, kill innocent people and perform mass destruction. Am I insane?"<br><b>Shrink:</b> "No no, not at all. Just like children play war, enjoying various entertainment that depict violence is completely natural. I like a good game of "Command & Conquer" after work myself, to tell the truth."<br><b>Me:</b> "I also like games where girls are violated by demons while screaming in anguish".<br><b>Shrink:</b> "......" *slowly backs away towards the door*<p>I gotta say, it sounds seriously wrong if I word it that way. But at the same time it's difficult for me (on a logical level) to dismiss non-sexual violent games as harmless entertainment due to not being real and people's ability to distinguish between reality and fantasy, then not give dark ero-games the same consideration. In a way, I can't get my feelings to agree with rational thinking, and that often makes it difficult to defend ero-games on the whole as "legitimate" entertainment. I really do find some of the darker games available in Japan downright disgusting, but I know that some people do react the same way when seeing the more extreme things you can do in GTA VC, things I don't even flinch at (or even find amusing when playing the game myself).<p>Maybe I'm just able to distance myself from the violence in regular games, but lack that ability when playing ero-games. People who are able to distance themselves (not feel guilty for what's happening in the game) when playing dark ero-games probably experience and enjoy them in the same way I regular games. I could probably read a book depicting darker scenes from ero-games, as I wouldn't feel "responsible" for what's happening. I think that to enjoy games with very violent content (both sexual and not), you need the ability to tell yourself "It's ok, because it's not real and no one is harmed", and the more graphic and realistic this violent this content becomes, the more it takes of this "ability" to play it without being disturbed. If that makes any sense whatsoever.<p>[size=small][Edit by AG3 on [TIME]1111993038[/TIME]][/size]

[Benoit]

<blockquote>Hey, I never said Bishoujo games were bad. I was merely annoyed that Benoit isn't willing to call a spade a spade... twisting and mincing words makes no difference, Benoit.</blockquote><br>To me, that still sounds double-sided. Could you explain?<p>On the one hand, you say:<p>"Hey, I'm not saying these games are bad."<p>Then you say:<p>"Most of these games are sick."<p>I was not mincing and twisting words at all. If I was, explain. I was making the difference between the JP and English market. Why is that so hard to understand?