Phantasy Star Cave Message Board

A common kind of phan is the Phantasy Star IV fan boy/girl. This person got introduced to the series through Phantasy Star IV, and loved it to bits. Then (s)he looked at previous games, and was disappointed by them. This person then proceeds to bash these games on message boards.

There's no doubt that Phantasy Star IV is a much more accessible game than its predecessors. It also got more polish and character development.

But it annoys me to no end when people put PSIV on a pedestal, and bash the previous games for not being designed in the same way. They disregard that the RPG genre developed. They disregard technical limitations. They disregard different ways to tell a story. And I'm sick of this closed-mindedness.

Related to this is idiotic statements concerning PSIII, the black sheep of the series. Some people would have preferred that it never existed. Those people fail to recognise that PSIII's existence never negatively impacted the other games. I would even go so far as to say that its existence benefitted the series.

• PSIII gave us Rappies, the series' most well-known mascot.
• There'd be no -ren types. Wren/Forren in PSIV wouldn't have existed in the way he did.
• PSIV's soundtrack wouldn't have been as great as it is without the efforts of Ippo, who likely would never have participated in PSIV's development if it wasn't for his involvement with PSIII.
• Without the failure of PSIII, Sega wouldn't have been eager to reassemble the original Phantasy Star team, and given them as much time as they needed.
• Everyone on Palma would have died. There'd be no worldships. There'd be no refugees saved by Tyler.

To conclude, open your mind, and enjoy these games for what they are.

Ditto.

I can't help but think you're targeting Aolish with that first paragraph... but you ARE right. I was introduced into PS by PSIV, yet I like 'em all. My reviews kinda prove that.

Indeed, I agree with what you have written BenoitRen. PSIV is infact my favorite Phantasy Star game from the series but it would not have been even half as huge of a success if not for the ones before it. The other PS games before it is what makes PSIV so great. It takes elements from the previous games (story, music, characters, enemies, bosses, towns, dungeons, etc.) and nicely incorporates it into one game.

I'm also annoyed when people compare PSIV to the previous PS games and badly bashes them. Especially when considering the fact that they were made during different times. Really now, how can an old game have better graphics then a new one (unless the new game is really horrible or rushed which is not the case with PSIV.)? In conclusion, the previous PS games are the back bone for the greatness of PSIV. Without them, PSIV would have been just another crappy old game which would have been forgotten by all. PSI-IV are popular retro games because they were ahead of their time. Where as PSIV is so popular because of the previous PS games. Can you think of PSIV's plot without the previous PS games' story lines...?

As for me, I was introduced to the PS series with PSII. Then I went on to play PSIII and later PSIV. Even so, I still enjoyed playing PSI and Gaiden after playing PSIV even if I had not liked them as much as PSIV.

Heroic_Chaz wrote:I can't help but think you're targeting Aolish with that first paragraph...

I'm not. I don't even know what he thinks about the first two games. It's the Fringes of Algo thread that I linked that sparked this one.

Danny wrote:The other PS games before it is what makes PSIV so great. It takes elements from the previous games (story, music, characters, enemies, bosses, towns, dungeons, etc.) and nicely incorporates it into one game.

I didn't think of that when I wrote my post. That's a very good point! It's what makes PSIV feel like a game made specially for old phans.

But this doesn't exclude the fact that PS3 still freakin sucks! LOL! I'm just kidding...... regarding your post Benoit, its like that with pretty much every game out there. One example out of a billzillion is the Final Fantasy games... FF2 and 3 (4 and 6 in japan) were some of the best RPG games back in the days... but people that started the genre on FF7 will never understand that.. they will just go into just how bad they look. Nothing else.. Wait 10-15 years when FF18 comes out and the generation of people that play THOSE GAMES will look at FF7 and will think to themselves how HORRENDOUS these games are!!!

The same can go for hardware to. Youtube is filled with people that put up old classic games (like gameboy games) like castlevania etc... but todays generation will just smack talk at how black and white or how awful it looks and how pixely the games look.... they never even think that back then the gameboy or genesis, SNES, TG16 etc were such innovative products at the time. This kind of mindset will always exist no matter what. Be it games.. cars, movies etc.

It does seem odd that half the reasoning for PS3 is that "If it didn't suck PS4 might've!" That's a really terrible defense, honestly.

Anyway, I'm a PS4 fan, but I really enjoyed PS1. I can't stomach playing PS2, but it does have a wonderful world and vibrant characters to populate it, as well as an interesting story.

But PS3 has bad music, gameplay, characters, plot, and even graphics, which aren't that important but are still bad, durn it. There's also no proof that there'd be no Wren-types if it weren't for 3, as they could very well have just gone on and invented them for 4. Rappies I could care less about; they're a lazy mascot that serve only to show up an die on occasion without a passing thought from the player.

Besides, the worldship concept makes no sense, really, unless the people of PS2 Palma just happened to have a fleet of them lying around in case something crashed into the planet and they needed to evacuate in fifteen minutes. And of course, this is in the off chance that Mother Brain didn't notice the construction of multiple continent-sized ships. PS4, as much as I love it, did nothing to really make sense of this part, and in fact seems to have convoluted it even more in some people's eyes.

So, you know what? This is why I ignore PS3. It's not close-mindedness or some sort of newbie-syndrome. It's because PS3 is a genuinely bad game that no one should ever have to suffer through, and especially not four times in a row in order to achieve endings with a line or two of altered text between them.

I'm not necessarily trying to be confrontational here, but it's hard to rein myself in given the accusatory nature of the first post.

Seriously, though. PS1 is awesome fun. I'm excited for the potential translation coming up in a few months.

EDIT:

More whining about the worldships: Most of the significance of the worldships in PS canon is actually outlined in the Compendium rather than in PS3, so there's even less need to pay attention to it. PS3 is merely a side-story about one stray worldship that no one cares about or will ever see again; removing it from the canon would actually affect nothing. Hell, it'd probably clear away a few mysteries at that.

meteor9 wrote:It does seem odd that half the reasoning for PS3 is that "If it didn't suck PS4 might've!" That's a really terrible defense, honestly.

You misunderstood my point. I was talking about it from a series point of view, not from a game's merits point of view. What I was countering is that PSIII should never have existed as part of the series.

There's also no proof that there'd be no Wren-types if it weren't for 3, as they could very well have just gone on and invented them for 4.

Considering that the team that made PSIII was totally different, this is extremely unlikely.

Besides, the worldship concept makes no sense, really

This I can agree with, but we mostly think that way because the concept was explained in a hurry. It's not like we knew what was going on on Palma. We never get to visit it in PSII.

But PS3 has bad music, gameplay, characters, plot, and even graphics, which aren't that important but are still bad, durn it.
(snip)
It's because PS3 is a genuinely bad game that no one should ever have to suffer through, and especially not four times in a row in order to achieve endings with a line or two of altered text between them.

Except that it's not a genuinely bad game. For the time, it was an average game.

To elaborate:

• The music is not universally bad. It's hit and miss.
• The gameplay was the same as PSII, and I don't see everyone complaining about it.
• The characters had about as much characterisation as PSI and PSII, which you can't really call bad.
• The plot itself was not bad, just not executed that well.
• The graphics were not bad. What you probably mean is that many places look the same, with many empty spots, which is a valid criticism.

If it really was a genuinely bad game barely anyone would have enjoyed it. But that's not the case. You're painting the entirety of PSIII with black, which is closed-minded despite your claim to the contrary and this is what I have a problem with. The game does have its merits.

Actually, the bigger problem, which is present on most gaming message boards, is the substanceless complaining. Instead of person X making a case and explaining why (s)he didn't like the game or parts of it, that person just says "it's bad". Doesn't exactly make for good discussion.

EDIT: Even you, for all the hate you give PSIII in this thread, can't entirely hate the game. I found SomethingAwful's PSIII thread months back. In it you say:

"As much as I hate this game, there are at least two characters I like. Lena, and Mieu."

"But, yes, while pretty much all of the music is poo poo, the opening theme is pretty nicely written."

Mono wrote:Ditto.

Yup.

meteor9 wrote:But PS3 has bad music, gameplay, characters, plot, and even graphics, which aren't that important but are still bad, durn it.

I have to disagree with music, characters and graphics. They were great. One thing I didn't liked too much AT FIRST was technique system. Only techs I use are anti and gires. I think offensive techs could be more effective, but it really doesn't ruin the game.
I have posted some cons & pros about PSIII to another topic.

BenoitRen wrote:A common kind of phan is the Phantasy Star IV fan boy/girl. This person got introduced to the series through Phantasy Star IV, and loved it to bits. Then (s)he looked at previous games, and was disappointed by them. This person then proceeds to bash these games on message boards.

PSIV was my first game in this series, but I dont bash the predecessors (I don't think) on the level on disappointment. While I do bash PSIII on the level that it is not exactly a finished product.

BenoitRen wrote:You misunderstood my point. I was talking about it from a series point of view, not from a game's merits point of view. What I was countering is that PSIII should never have existed as part of the series.

Maybe so, but it still ends up sounding like "No one should complain about three for being bad because it's possible that it led to four being good." Perhaps I really don't know the goings-on of SEGA at the time, but I still can't accept that PS3 helped the series that much.

(Wren-types)

Considering that the team that made PSIII was totally different, this is extremely unlikely.

I'm not too convinced here. They might not have made more Wrens, true, but given the prevalence of robots in PS2, even just as enemies, makes it likely that future installments would have robotic companions. Heck, even PS1 had Hapsby.

This I can agree with, but we mostly think that way because the concept was explained in a hurry. It's not like we knew what was going on on Palma. We never get to visit it in PSII.

Yeah, it's a plot point that the whole series is content to ignore, so, hell, I don't even know what to say about it.

Except that it's not a genuinely bad game. For the time, it was an average game.

To elaborate:

• The music is not universally bad. It's hit and miss.
• The gameplay was the same as PSII, and I don't see everyone complaining about it.
• The characters had about as much characterisation as PSI and PSII, which you can't really call bad.
• The plot itself was not bad, just not executed that well.
• The graphics were not bad. What you probably mean is that many places look the same, with many empty spots, which is a valid criticism.

Most of the ingame music was painful. Perhaps this is subjective, but I have a wide and varied appreciation of music, especially in the Video Game genre. As you pointed out later, I did like some of the songs (and the something awful swear filter for guests amuses me), but the ones I liked hardly ever play. Hell, my favorite only plays on the title screen, which most players will see for all of three seconds.

The gameplay is different, though. While the dungeons are long and painful, they're also boring in PS3 now, and composed almost entirely of the 'ship underbelly' dungeons which may be the laziest and yet convoluted places I've ever had the misery of plowing through. Techniques that aren't for healing are completely useless. And far as I know, no equipment has any special effects. This may not seem like all that much, but, since PS1 and PS2 both excelled in this area many years prior, and many other RPGs of the time were also comparable, it's quite damning of PS3 for it to be a step backwards.

While the characters of PS1 and PS2 only had one scene each, if that, they still managed to have more personality and uniqueness to them than the lurching mass of generic NPCs that PS3 tosses at you. Again, yes, I like Mieu, but that's only for superficial reasons. I'll be honest there. Lena, on the other hand, is surprisingly good for this game, but only because of background information not even presented in the game itself. Clearly, the whole game had potential, but since it didn't act on any of it, how am I supposed to care?

If I recall right, the plot is "We've been on a spaceship for a few generations. Most of us forgot that somehow because no one is capable of reading or writing. The ones that didn't forget are either living with Dark Force or have all the means to stop him but just feel like sitting around. Also, Dark Force is in a box not doing anything." And, since the whole cast is interchangeable for this, it's even less capable of being interesting.

I do mean they are bad, though. The vibrance of previous games is lost. The character sprites may seem a bit more detailed, but they're also significantly uglier than the sprites of 2 or 4, especially the blank faces. There's also the repetition, yes. Monster sprites were also more detailed, but, again, significantly uglier than any other game in the series. Even their animations were a tremendous step down from previous games in the series.

If it really was a genuinely bad game barely anyone would have enjoyed it. But that's not the case. You're painting the entirety of PSIII with black, which is closed-minded despite your claim to the contrary and this is what I have a problem with. The game does have its merits.

Look, if you have a problem with me having quality standards in the games I play, I'm not really sure what to tell you.

Actually, the bigger problem, which is present on most gaming message boards, is the substanceless complaining. Instead of person X making a case and explaining why (s)he didn't like the game or parts of it, that person just says "it's bad". Doesn't exactly make for good discussion.

Thing is, though, I do give reasoning. Quite often, in fact, if serious discussion is involved. I've played through the game at least twice, so you can know I'm not just basing all this on five minutes of barely paying attention.

Really, I'm not trying to be confrontational here. But you seem to take grave offense to anyone that dislikes PS3, regardless of how deserving of that hate that many, many people feel it is.

So, perhaps yes, it's really only terribly mediocre and not quite the Genesis edition of Stargazer, but that doesn't mean I should be holding it in high regard, either, especially if it's part of a series that normally delivers quality and innovation. For jRPGs, anyway.

EDIT: Seriously, though, I'm enjoying myself here. It's so rare to get a good PS debate going on these days.

They might not have made more Wrens, true, but given the prevalence of robots in PS2, even just as enemies, makes it likely that future installments would have robotic companions.

I was careful to mention that Wren as he is designed now wouldn't exist. Sure there would probably be a robotic companion. But it wouldn't be even close to the same design aside from being an android.

Most of the ingame music was painful.

Were most of the music tracks painful, or were you hearing a painful track most of the time? I'm asking because you enter the battle mode a lot, and that's where the music lacks direction and is quite horrible.

I can't agree with most of the music being painful because of said opening theme, the soothing town theme, the excellent dungeon theme that comes in two subtly different versions, the evolving overworld theme, and Wren's awesome transformation theme.

The gameplay is different, though.

I was mainly thinking of the battle system. It's exactly the same as PSII's, yet people complain about it. But I will admit that the icons didn't help.

What do you mean by special effects? Do you mean elemental attributes? Technique casting by item usage? If the former, PSI didn't, and if the latter, PSIII has that as well.

The Techniques themselves aren't that useless. The problem is that aside from Lyle no character has the strength to use attack Techniques properly. It's always quicker to go melee. That, and the fact that the Techniques are dumped on you as soon as you get a Technique-using character, discourages experimentation.

For example, Fanbi is a very useful Technique that's seldomly used. It boosts your attack power plenty, and can be stacked.

But you seem to take grave offense to anyone that dislikes PS3, regardless of how deserving of that hate that many, many people feel it is.

I'm not asking people to put it on a pedestal, but the hate it gets is often quite exaggarated, the "PSIII should never have existed" being the best example I can give of that. I do admit that the game was rushed and that it has serious flaws, but I also feel that it has redeemable qualities.

BenoitRen wrote:

Most of the ingame music was painful.

Were most of the music tracks painful, or were you hearing a painful track most of the time? I'm asking because you enter the battle mode a lot, and that's where the music lacks direction and is quite horrible.

100% Agree. I think PSIII is superb in musics (excluding the battle musics) compared to other games of that time on Meagadrive/Genesis.

And let's mention something bad about PSIV to balance things a bit: It's WAY TOO easy. It really has no challenge.

I agree with you there, Zucca. PSIII has, by far, the best soundtrack except the battle music. And PSIV was the easiest of the series. However, all games these days are easier... I remember Dragon Warrior being quite a bit harder than its modern-day counterparts. For some reason, games are getting easier with time, hence the reason they put higher difficulties, they see: "Oh, this is way too easy. Let's slap up some tougher enemies and see if it helps."

I dunno, most difficulty in RPGs, especially older ones, is entirely based on one number being bigger than another. Having to spend an hour grinding just to survive the next area really isn't fun. Grinding should be something you do on the side to sorta reward yourself with absurd power, not be a necessity. And, most of the time, death is just luck of the draw; therefore, completely out of the hands of the player's skill, and super-therefore, not real difficulty.

That said, difficult RPGs nowadays (SMT and the like) are actually difficult, requiring planning and strategy rather than just number raising. Granted, you've got secret-bosses like the Demi-Fiend that manage to be insane AND luck based, but, most of the time it's all doable.

Anyway, back to the issue at hand: Me flailing in defense of my offense against PS3.

BenoitRen wrote:I was careful to mention that Wren as he is designed now wouldn't exist. Sure there would probably be a robotic companion. But it wouldn't be even close to the same design aside from being an android.

The design and name would be different, sure, but he very well could've been written the same, as would have Demi, and therefore I wouldn't have a single problem with it. Wren looks cool and all, sure, but I'm here for his personality, not his fashionable plating.

Were most of the music tracks painful, or were you hearing a painful track most of the time? I'm asking because you enter the battle mode a lot, and that's where the music lacks direction and is quite horrible.

In retrospect, most of the game's music isn't so bad. Not really great by any means, but not bad. Still, the way most of the songs are instrumentalized (A term I'm inventing for the different ways of making an FM synth go 'bleep') in a really grating fashion. Even the opening title theme, a song I love, is really hard to listen to on the actual Genesis due to how they played it.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining this clearly, so I'm just gonna hope you understand what I mean on that one.

The other problem, though, is that for a game spanning three generations and seven 'worlds', there's a severe lack of music. FAR too much repetition.

I was mainly thinking of the battle system. It's exactly the same as PSII's, yet people complain about it. But I will admit that the icons didn't help.

What do you mean by special effects? Do you mean elemental attributes? Technique casting by item usage? If the former, PSI didn't, and if the latter, PSIII has that as well.

Elemental attributes rarely mean much to me (although I admit that finally using thunderclaws in PS4 was incredibly rewarding), so I just meant the "use as an item" effects. I believe 1, 2, and 4 have them, but I don't recall that being an option in 3. If I missed that, then whoops, I guess.

The Techniques themselves aren't that useless. The problem is that aside from Lyle no character has the strength to use attack Techniques properly. It's always quicker to go melee. That, and the fact that the Techniques are dumped on you as soon as you get a Technique-using character, discourages experimentation.

For example, Fanbi is a very useful Technique that's seldomly used. It boosts your attack power plenty, and can be stacked.

Can't say I knew that about fanbi, but, at the same time the party does more than enough damage unboosted, so I can't say I'd ever use it anyway.

Half of the fun of PS4, and I assume PS2 as I never get too far in it whenever I try, is the sheer wealth of skills and techniques available to the party. PS3 just feels so neutered in that regard.

I'm not asking people to put it on a pedestal, but the hate it gets is often quite exaggarated, the "PSIII should never have existed" being the best example I can give of that. I do admit that the game was rushed and that it has serious flaws, but I also feel that it has redeemable qualities.

Well, I firmly believe that PS3 can be disregarded, and I say that as a long-time gamer with a deep passion for the classic 8 and 16 bit generations based on what I feel is solid evidence. I guess I'll just leave it at that since we're at a bit of an impasse.


Long story short: Goddamn, PS3 could use a remake. Surely Sonic Team couldn't mess that up, right?