Musical Discussion (There. Not spam.)

[Sir Nicholas]

That list of tracks is godly.

Download them. If you like EDM, you'll love those.

[Neo48]

Oh, I already have heard about half of them. But I do not doubt that the rest are just as good.

[LaconianShot]

LaconianShot, I always thought music was any sequence of sounds that make up a coherent tune and/or beat

But by that definition, emotion doesn't matter. Look up on Youtube a video of a robot playing John Coltrane's Giant Steps. It's all correct notes and rythms, but it sucks. Why? Because the robot can't play it with emotion like Coltrane did. It doesn't mean anything to the robot, but it meant something to Coltrane. Music without emotion is just notes and rythms.

In fact, didn't the very first musicians in Africa make their music by singing and by beating animal-hide drums, because it's all they had?

I've played the djambe and learned African tribals drum songs. It's not the medium that matter, but the musicality. Those songs are full of emotion-- as well as good rythm. Musicality is not just technical or emotional, but the marriage of both. If you want to make music, you have to rise above just the technical level. Conversely, you can't make music if you can't obtain a certain level of technicality. The tribes of Africa did not stick to one beat just because that was all they knew how to do at first.

Why does music have to be something that requires a show of insane aptitude, knowledge of theory and only using traditional instruments? I don't see anything wrong with taking advantage of modern technology and having some fun with it. Mike Romeo of Symphony X does it for the instrumental songs.

I don't recall mentioning the use of only traditional instruments, nor did I say that musicality requires insane aptitude. It requires a certain level of skill, yes, but that skill changes depending on what exactly the repetoire is. Kurt Cobain wasn't much of an actual guitar player, but he wrote for what he knew, and ended up making music. However, the less you can do technically, the lower your ceiling. If you have a lot of technical chops, then you can still write simple, beautiful music, but you also have the potential to go other places too. Same with theory-- you don't have to know a lot, but the more you know, the better off you are.

You're kind of putting words in my mouth about the modern technology point. I'm not adverse to using it-- I love keyboard and guitar, and they have the potential to be as musical as anything else. However, when you have distanced yourself from actually having to play an instrument, then you're just programming "music", and then you've likely lost your touch with what music is anyway.

...and I will take this oppurtunity to say that if you had given techno a "fair shake" you would have calle dit by its proper term, EDM

Hmm, I seem to recall you referring to it as "techno" several times during this thread. And aside from that, techno is what its colloquially known as, so that's what I call it. If you call it EDM, that's your perogative, but it's really just like calling a gas jockey a petroleum transfer engineer.

If you donwloaded everything you saw off a filesharing program after typing "techno" in the search box, well, I'd hate it too.

I don't use filesharing much because it generally hurts artists. Occasionally I download a couple songs to see if I like the band, but not much more than that. No, what I've heard of techno is basically what I've listened to on Sirius, which has about 5 different channels that fall under the umbrella of "techno". When I have free time I spend time listening to them (among other things) to broaden my horizons, to use a clichéd expression. The genre, on the whole, seems to rely more on generic beats that have worked for the last 15 years than on actual creativity. Everything about the genre sounds the same. Like I said before, remixes are the worst of it, because they are essentially musical necrophilia. I believe that I've even heard some of the songs on your list ("Children" rings a bell, though not in a wow-that-was-great way). I'll try to give them another listen, but if I haven't found very many songs that were musical in an initial random sampling, than I'm obviously not expecting to find much on a second try. There's being selective, but the amount of crap that experienced was ridiculous.

And if you're one of those pretentious cocks who say music must have lyrics to be good, well, why waste your time? You sound stupid.

Scroll up. Look at my list of jazz artists. Are any of the vocalists? Now make sure you know who Miles Davis is and what exactly it is that he did, and then ask me whether I think that music has to have lyrics to be good.

I don't know why we're opposed to holding music to high standards. Not everything with a beat and notes is music. Saying that music is only a beat plus some notes is like saying that literature is just paper with some words. This is clearly not true. Tabloid magazines are not literature. In the same manner, most pop music is not music. While I won't necessarily equate techno with tabloid magazines, I do think it's similar to pop in that it is overproduced without any thought to what actual music is. Just like it's the producers, not the musicians, who call the shots with pop music, the DJ who composes the song oftentimes does not even play the synthesizer in the song. Same with the drums... it's a drum machine, not a person. If you haven't had any musical background playing these instruments (or at least piano, as composers often do) then how can you possibly have an informed clue as to what makes truly beautiful music? That's what bothers me about techno-- people who aren't real musicians composing generic songs, the likes of which have been done to death by artists who were actually innovative in their time, instead of scavengers for creativity.

Unless you consider a cheap shot at me after I asked for a reduction of drama to be mature.

Honestly, there's really no way that you can twist you faking your own death on Livejournal (mmmm, smell the drama and attention whoring yet?) into other people being immature. A mature person would not do such a thing. You seem to think you've got some sort of excellent reason for it, but I there's not any situation that I can think of that makes faking your death on the internet a viable solution.

[Neo48]

Ah yes, the lack of emotion. Jherm and I talked about that at one point.

Some of your points seem valid. But I sense a bit of urgency to put down "EDM" as a complete source of music.

If music requires emotion, does that mean all EDM artists are emotionless robots? Do they not feel a sense of inspiration, as they start stringing together different beats, different sounds or making collaborations? Do they not have the conscious to take pride in what they have created?

If you haven't had any musical background playing these instruments (or at least piano, as composers often do) then how can you possibly have an informed clue as to what makes truly beautiful music? That's what bothers me about techno-- people who aren't real musicians composing generic songs, the likes of which have been done to death by artists who were actually innovative in their time, instead of scavengers for creativity.

I don't like this, as it contradicts what many of my EDM fan friends who have been in a very similar position as you have been musically. People who have been playing a wide range of instuments that enjoy EDM. Of course, this can be as simple as opinion. Which is what bothers me. What makes music then? Is it only a choice pick of instruments that can be flooded with the emotion of a composer? The electric guitar was ground breaking, and some of the most emotional blues artists made it a beautiful thing. How is it that you can say they had any idea of what beautiful music was on new technology? How can any person disipher between what requires skill or emotion. You can't, you can only decide what you put emotion into. And you can only decide what you get emotion out of. Music is not bounded by what a person feels is fair to play, or how much skill one has (and I believe anyone hear would have just as hard a time to learn ad drum kit or a drum machine). The beauty of music is decided by what the listener hears. It that is why you can like Stan Kenton. That is why I can like Paul van Dyk. And it is the same reason why the both of us (instumentally knowledge and not) can like Pink Floyd.

[IndispensablePeaGuy]

Honestly, there's really no way that you can twist you faking your own death on Livejournal (mmmm, smell the drama and attention whoring yet?) into other people being immature. A mature person would not do such a thing. You seem to think you've got some sort of excellent reason for it, but I there's not any situation that I can think of that makes faking your death on the internet a viable solution.

In summary, Saint Nicholas is a proper dime bar.

[BenoitRen]

Honestly, there's really no way that you can twist you faking your own death on Livejournal (mmmm, smell the drama and attention whoring yet?) into other people being immature.

He asked to leave it in the past, and you made a cheap shot in an immature way out of nowhere. Can you really say that this was not immature?

AND THEN ARMAND KILLED YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! : (((((((((((((((((

I'm not asking you to forget about it, but it's been two years, and he asked to let it be. As keeping the drama down is part of my job as a moderator, I have to agree with him.

[Mizerith]

LaconianShot, I always thought music was any sequence of sounds that make up a coherent tune and/or beat

But by that definition, emotion doesn't matter. Look up on Youtube a video of a robot playing John Coltrane's Giant Steps. It's all correct notes and rythms, but it sucks. Why? Because the robot can't play it with emotion like Coltrane did. It doesn't mean anything to the robot, but it meant something to Coltrane. Music without emotion is just notes and rythms.

'Kay, I checked out the robot playing Giant Steps, and compared it to the original version of the song. I thought it was pretty neat, actually, but yeah, it certainly is flat. But I don't understand why that must mean that the flat version isn't music. Why can't it be that some music is just more "bodied", for lack of a better word, than other music? Anyway, the electronic music that I like doesn't sound flat to me. If it did, I wouldn't keep listening to it, because flat isn't my thing.

It's actually interesting that you mention emotion, because the subgenre of electronic known as "trance" -- which itself has a pretty broad spectrum of sub-genres -- has actually been dubbed "the emotional genre." And how would you know whether or not the tracks of EDM producers mean anything to them, unless you asked them all about it? Have you?

In fact, didn't the very first musicians in Africa make their music by singing and by beating animal-hide drums, because it's all they had?

I've played the djambe and learned African tribals drum songs. It's not the medium that matter, but the musicality. Those songs are full of emotion-- as well as good rythm. Musicality is not just technical or emotional, but the marriage of both. If you want to make music, you have to rise above just the technical level. Conversely, you can't make music if you can't obtain a certain level of technicality. The tribes of Africa did not stick to one beat just because that was all they knew how to do at first.

I underlined the bit that I was thinking about when I mentioned making use of modern technology. What I meant by that was, maybe EDM producers are thinking, "Here we have this technology with which we can make music, and it can make different sounds than traditional instruments -- cool sci-fi sounds like lasers, Tie Fighter sounds, electric zaps. Hey, let's have some fun with that." Maybe I should have just said that in the first place. Sorry for the confusion.

Why does music have to be something that requires a show of insane aptitude, knowledge of theory and only using traditional instruments? I don't see anything wrong with taking advantage of modern technology and having some fun with it. Mike Romeo of Symphony X does it for the instrumental songs.

I don't recall mentioning the use of only traditional instruments, nor did I say that musicality requires insane aptitude. It requires a certain level of skill, yes, but that skill changes depending on what exactly the repetoire is. Kurt Cobain wasn't much of an actual guitar player, but he wrote for what he knew, and ended up making music. However, the less you can do technically, the lower your ceiling. If you have a lot of technical chops, then you can still write simple, beautiful music, but you also have the potential to go other places too. Same with theory-- you don't have to know a lot, but the more you know, the better off you are.

You're kind of putting words in my mouth about the modern technology point. I'm not adverse to using it-- I love keyboard and guitar, and they have the potential to be as musical as anything else. However, when you have distanced yourself from actually having to play an instrument, then you're just programming "music", and then you've likely lost your touch with what music is anyway.

I thought you said something about lack of instruments taking away from musicality, but maybe I read it wrong -- and if so, my mistake.

And I agree with you about skill. But I remember an acquaintance of mine who used to be an avid raver and big fan of EDM once telling me that it's not really meant to be about the skill and the people so much as the music itself. See, with rock concerts generally you're not only there for the music but also to watch the band play, whereas rave is all about the music and the dancing. To focus on DJs' and EDM producers' skills or lack thereof is missing the point. So I'm just wondering why music should have to be about all these different things, and not about just enjoying the sounds and letting them move you and what not.

...and I will take this oppurtunity to say that if you had given techno a "fair shake" you would have calle dit by its proper term, EDM

Hmm, I seem to recall you referring to it as "techno" several times during this thread. And aside from that, techno is what its colloquially known as, so that's what I call it. If you call it EDM, that's your perogative, but it's really just like calling a gas jockey a petroleum transfer engineer.

And isn't techno colloquially known as music? What's wrong with considering it so, if EDM can be considered techno? By the way, just a fun fact: those of us into the genre generally only call the cold, minimal, machine-like stuff techno. The melodic, emotional, or ominous, hypnotic stuff is trance, drum 'n' bass speaks for itself, and there's what VNV Nation is -- either Futurepop or EBM (Electronic Body Music) depending on who you ask. There are more, but those are what I can name off the top of my head. And there are hundreds of sub-genres for each genre.

Everything about the genre sounds the same. Like I said before, remixes are the worst of it, because they are essentially musical necrophilia. I believe that I've even heard some of the songs on your list ("Children" rings a bell, though not in a wow-that-was-great way). I'll try to give them another listen, but if I haven't found very many songs that were musical in an initial random sampling, than I'm obviously not expecting to find much on a second try. There's being selective, but the amount of crap that experienced was ridiculous.

I wouldn't say everything about the genre sounds the same. Certainly "Gouryella" by DJ Tiesto and Ferry Corsten sounds sort of like a cash-in of "Out of the Blue" by System F, as Sir Nicholas pointed out to me a while ago, but it's kind of understandable since System F is Ferry Corsten under a different alias. But when you've heard as much EDM as I have you find that, indeed, there are a lot of tracks that sounds similar, but even more that sound unique. I haven't heard anything that sounds like Astral Projection, for example, other than maybe "Teleport" by Man With No Name, and even that's kind of iffy. S.U.N. Project is another unique one, I find, and also VNV Nation, and Aura.

If you haven't had any musical background playing these instruments (or at least piano, as composers often do) then how can you possibly have an informed clue as to what makes truly beautiful music?

Eh, "beautiful" is a subjective term. One man's trash is another man's treasure. Some tracks I personally find beautiful are: "Project Soar" by Aura, "Out of the Blue" by System F, and "Naked Angel" by Solarstone and Scott Bond, to name a few. But that's just me.

And as for calling EBM "music" being like calling tabloids "literature", well, a quick search on the exact definition of literature tells me that tabloids actually can be called literature, but it's obviously just not common usage. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/literature (Look down where it says, "In the broadest sense...")

[Sir Nicholas]

To Mizerith: Damn you! I tried to post an argument earlier but I couldn't log in. Now you stole my thunder.
And just because a SMALL number of EDM tracks sample, youre far gone to assume they all sound the same. Take the first five songs on my list. All different subgenres. Now give them a listen and tell me they sound exactly the same.

And, Laco, yes, you were immature. Even more so that you didn't think to ask those that know the full truth about that little scandal.

[Mizerith]

To Mizerith: Damn you! I tried to post an argument earlier but I couldn't log in. Now you stole my thunder.

Sorry.

[Lord Khyron]

This is great. I knew he had done that..

Seriously, being involved in any scandal and then faking your death ONLINE is.... Sad.

Some people just can't face their mistakes and have to be all dramatic about it. Then they have to justify why any form of suicide was required!

EDM? Please.. Techno was Techno back in 1992 and before and after. Back then it was original. Lots of good techno originates in the early 90's.

Then again.. Most of the posters here are too young to appreciate good techno from that time period.

Let's get technical: Electronica, New-wave, Eurobeat, Eurodance.. pfft..

P.S. I can't figure out what is funnier A) someone thinking people care about a internet suicide or B) WHAT true Techno is..

[Sir Nicholas]

To Khyron: You also don't know the facts. Don't be so pretentious as to assume otherwise. K?

Techno was techno in 1992. It was NOT trance, house, jungle, ambient, breaks, or any other form on EDM. Good techno does exist, just ask the Swedes. But my age has nothing to do with my knowledge of electronic music. I know good TRANCE was rampant in the early 90s, until 1996, when Children revolutionized the genre. Union Jack, Cosmic Baby, Kid Paul, Sven Vath, Casper Pound, Dance 2 Trance, Jam & Spoon, they all released untouchable classics in the early 90s. If you're looking for the golden age of REAL techno, the 70s is where you should be looking.

Don't judge me because of my age. I know more about EDM than anyone else on here. It's my passion. My career. And the reason we're debating about it is because it's uber-annoying when I hear someone say "I like techno...like that Sandstorm song!" Use the term properly. Otherwise your debate crumbles to ashes.

[Lord Khyron]

[quote]
o Khyron: You also don't know the facts. Don't be so pretentious as to assume otherwise. K? [\quote]

There is no REASON to ever commit online suicide. Whatever problem you get yourself into, DEAL with it and face it. Don't be a coward and pull a stunt no one cares about.

Apparently being dumb enough to involve yourself in a scandal that "supposedly" the only way out is suicide also means you have to be a coward and run away.

If people would stop pretending to be who they aren't, stuff like this would never happen. Sigh..

By the way.... If you get annoyed at people calling "sandstorm" techno, then blame the god damn morons who put stuff like that on those "Ultimate Techno" cd sets. You know.. The ones the Countdown Dance Masters do?

Hell, I've got about 9 of those cds and have of those songs wouldn't be techno as I consider it. But they are labeled as thus. Same with the best of club music.

[Dorrinal]

I don't feel so old to see so many other people who like Pink Floyd, Yes, Led Zeppelin, all the other classics. When I'm in the mood I like jazz-rap (A Tribe Called Quest?).

As far as techno goes (it's all "techno" to the untrained ear; stop being so condescending) I like a little drum and bass myself. Just need to turn it off when it gets repetitive. Today I was listening to Industrial. And "good Trance" is an oxymoron, I'm afraid. The only emotion that it invokes is sheer boredom.

Three cheers for additional drama and flame wars!

[Mizerith]

And "good Trance" is an oxymoron, I'm afraid.

To quote "The Dude" from The Big Lebowski, "Yeah? Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

The only emotion that it invokes is sheer boredom.

It doesn't bore me, and there are many others whom it doesn't bore, including but not limited to a few others on this very forum.

[Mizerith]

Edit: Nevermind. Disregard this post. Missagh, can you please delete it? I would simply delete it myself, but I can't anymore, for some reason.