Musical Discussion (There. Not spam.)

[Neo48]

10 Points to Jeff Healy. (Yes I know he wasn't deaf)

[Mizerith]

It seems to me you have only really heard the mainstream stuff and are generalising.

Yeah, pretty much. But it's a large quantity of what I've heard that reflects my impression of the genre. I'm not saying that musical EDM doesn't exist, but a vast quanitity of the genre seems to be generic non-music. It's like today's pop music... sure there is some music in the genre, but most of it is contrived, overproduced, soulless music.
I'd be happy if EDM was more musical. I like musical EDM... it's just that it's too few and too far between for me to say that the entire genre itself is musical.

Well, as someone who has been into the genre for over ten years, constantly looking for more and more of the stuff, I'm telling you that it is music even by your definition. I guess you don't have to believe me, but I have no reason to lie about it. I've always known that techno/rave/electronic is "out", and it wasn't long before I just stopped giving a damn. So I'm not going to say you have to like it, but I will presents the facts, take 'em or leave 'em. Here's Ishkur's guide again, if you want to see the diversity and emotion in the genre for yourself. Maybe it will all still sound generic and soulless to you, but it doesn't to me or my close friends.

Also, I stand by my earlier assertion that tabloids can count as literature. Here are some relevant definitions...

literature:
3. the writings dealing with a particular subject: the literature of ornithology.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/literature

3 a (1): writings in prose or verse; especially : writings having excellence of form or expression and expressing ideas of permanent or universal interest
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/literature

5. Printed material: collected all the available literature on the subject.
http://www.bartleby.com/61/96/L0199600.html

[LaconianShot]

Also, I stand by my earlier assertion that tabloids can count as literature. Here are some relevant definitions...

Great for you, but go ask a writer with a Masters if he thinks that tabloids are literature. In a broad sense, yes tabloids are literature, and so are magazine flyers. But are they literature? Of course not. If it's hanging on the wall, is it art? Essentially, you're telling me that it is.

Anyway, we don't need to retread the same ground. I've already told you that the majority of what I heard in a random sampling was crap. I mean, there's probably some good, musical stuff, but it likely requires digging to find. I don't mind that, but it really doesn't change my opinion of the genre as a whole. The stuff worth listening seems to be the exception rather than the rule. If that's the stuff that you enjoy, than I'm glad you've found it.

[Mizerith]

In a broad sense, yes tabloids are literature, and so are magazine flyers.

That's my point. Many words have more than one meaning, and I see nothing wrong with that being the case for music and even literature. I mean, why be divisive? It seems to serve no other other purpose than for a few people to feel special because they're into "TRUE literature", and "TRUE music". Little do they realize they just come off as snobby and elitist, whether or not they actually are.

If it's hanging on the wall, is it art? Essentially, you're telling me that it is.

Remember, art is a pretty subjective thing. What one person thinks is art, another person may see no artistic merit in whatsoever. Who's right, and who's wrong? Who can honestly say? It's all a matter of perspective at the end of they day.

Anyway, we don't need to retread the same ground. I've already told you that the majority of what I heard in a random sampling was crap. I mean, there's probably some good, musical stuff, but it likely requires digging to find. I don't mind that, but it really doesn't change my opinion of the genre as a whole. The stuff worth listening seems to be the exception rather than the rule. If that's the stuff that you enjoy, than I'm glad you've found it.

Like I said, I'm not going to say you have to like it, but I am qualified to say that it counts as music by your definition; if it has to have rhythm, melody and feeling, plenty of techno/rave has that. Maybe you just don't see it. But I do, and as a matter of fact I don't see the emotion in classical or jazz, but then again it's not exactly my cup of tea and I haven't even heard much of it anyway. Still, I don't assert that it doesn't have emotion and that it is therefore not music. That would be a fallacy on my part.

[LaconianShot]

Little do they realize they just come off as snobby and elitist, whether or not they actually are.

I'm not talking about elitism, I'm talking about standards. Something is not "art" by virtue of the fact that it's medium is paint. Just because somebody is selling a CD does not make it music. I have a problem with the callous and ignorant manner in which many people would compare Bach with Brittney Spears. It's tantamount to comparing Shakespeare with a magazine flyer.

It's all a matter of perspective at the end of they day.

Okay, but if some "artist" threw some paint on canvas randomly and churned art out at an astronomical rate for the sake of making money and not art at all, would that be art? Why should our opinion of music be any different?

...plenty of techno/rave has that.

I keep having to repost this statement, but I suppose I'll say it again. I'm not saying that all EDM has no emotion, I'm saying that the majority of the genre does not, similar to how the pop industry is primarily fabricated but does have some actual music as well (though I would be of the opinion that EDM still has more in the way of music than pop does). If you've found some artist that are musical, than that's great, because I think that it's hard to do so.

But I do, and as a matter of fact I don't see the emotion in classical or jazz, but then again it's not exactly my cup of tea and I haven't even heard much of it anyway

The difference is that I have heard quite a bit of EDM.
Aside from that, classical and jazz take a while to get used into. EDM is dance music, and on general principle, designed to be easy to get into. Same with rock... it's really pretty accessible, which is why it's been so popular in the last half of the 20th century. The form of rock, pop and EDM is pretty easy to understand, generally speaking. The chord progressions aren't too strange and the structure is fairly straightforward. Even if you don't know what I mean when I say this, it's something that one subconsciously takes note of.
Jazz and classical songs are quite a bit more complicated than your average rock or pop song. I know that for me it was years in developing a taste for them. At first, I knew there was musical value, but I didn't quite enjoy it, per se. However, my other tastes in music allowed me to trace my way to jazz and classical and start to appreciate its influence. Classical and jazz are not genres that you can listen to without reciprocating. However, they are incredibly rewarding.
There's something about Bach that even people who don't care for classical can really latch on to. I've seen it time and time again, especially in younger people. Even if they've never heard classical music before, or don't much care for it, they listen to a part of a piece and go away knowing that there's something very special going on. That is music. Classical has such longevity because of that quality, so if one tried to argue that there was nothing musical about classical, then one would be proven wrong by the longevity of the genre itself.
Of course, this feeling that something special is going on is not just in classical. I've heard it in many genres, and many artists. Yes, I've even heard it in EDM (Eric Whitacre does some trance stuff that is every bit as beautiful as his choral compositions). When I talk about music, I'm not just talking about enjoyment, but this special quality that makes even skeptics of a genre stop and take note. Even if you don't like it, you can respect it and even understand it. That is the standard that I hold as being music, and so when I talk about what is music and what is not, hopefully you can understand exactly where I'm coming from.

[Danny]

I thought that maybe I could lower the tension here with a Webster's definition of music. The dictionary never fails! At least I hope not...

Music: 1. The art and science of combining vocal or instrumental sounds or tones in varying melody, harmony, rythem and timbre, esp. so as to form structurally complete and emotionally expressive compositions.

2. The sounds or tones arranged, or the arrangement of these.

3. Any rythmic sequence of pleasing sounds, as birds, water, etc.

4. a) A particular form, style, etc. of musical composition or a particular class of musical works or pieces [folk music] b) The body of musical works of a particular style, place, period or composer.

5. The written or printed score of a musical composition.

6. Ability to respond to or take pleasure in music [no music in his soul]

7. [rare] A group of musical performers.

*Face the music (Colloq.): To accept the consequences of one's actions, however unpleasent.

Set to music: To compose music for (a poem, etc.)

My rist hurts from typing all that from my Webster's dictionary. Oh and if you want to quote this, make sure you add "Webster's" or nothing at all as this isn't my opinion of music. It's Webster's definition of it.

As said, even the sound of birds or water can be called music. This probably inspired the start of classical music which I believe invokes some of the deepest emotion and thought. I guess "music" is what inspires you and gives off an emotion.

As for me, I prefer classic and techno (anime songs). The way I see it, classical music is supposed to be listened to for a longer time to give you an emotion while anime songs give off a faster sudden burst of emotion which may overwhelm some people. I think this is why older people prefer the more calm classic music and younger ones, rock and techno which is faster and more upbeat. Of course, they both vary accordingly and so do people. The times of these musical releases also obviously affects the people in that time more.

It's hard to argue that a song or sound isn't music, it's easier to say that you don't like it. Just like how I don't like rap and hip-hop. They don't seem to have any "positive feeling" or message to it. I classify it as something evil which inspires only hate and injustice. Some how, hearing "I'm going to bust the cops and the white boys" doesn't sound very positive to me. It's actually pretty offensive to me as I'm white. I believe that they wouldn't like hearing "let's bust all the black guys". Talk about being a hypocrite...

I actually wanted to reduce the amount of flame wars in this topic by not taking any sides, but I may accidentally start one myself because of my negative comments towards rap and hip-hop. Of course, I speak for the majority of it and not all. I hope nothing bad comes of this post as it's just my honest opinion. Not many people appriciate this very much, instead they like false politeness and humor now a days. (Of course I am speaking about people in general again, not at this fourm.)

[Mizerith]

Little do they realize they just come off as snobby and elitist, whether or not they actually are.

I have a problem with the callous and ignorant manner in which many people would compare Bach with Brittney Spears. It's tantamount to comparing Shakespeare with a magazine flyer.

Well, I'm not doing that. Obviously they are different kinds of music and literature.

It's all a matter of perspective at the end of they day.

Okay, but if some "artist" threw some paint on canvas randomly and churned art out at an astronomical rate for the sake of making money and not art at all, would that be art? Why should our opinion of music be any different?

I don't see too many electronic music producers doing anything like that, so I don't see what that has to do with anything.

...plenty of techno/rave has that.

I keep having to repost this statement, but I suppose I'll say it again. I'm not saying that all EDM has no emotion, I'm saying that the majority of the genre does not, similar to how the pop industry is primarily fabricated but does have some actual music as well (though I would be of the opinion that EDM still has more in the way of music than pop does).

And I keep having to repeat myself -- I've lived and breathed the genre for over ten years, and I say the majority of it has emotion. You just don't see it.

If you've found some artist that are musical, than that's great, because I think that it's hard to do so.

I've found many, and I don't think it's hard at all to do so.

But I do, and as a matter of fact I don't see the emotion in classical or jazz, but then again it's not exactly my cup of tea and I haven't even heard much of it anyway

The difference is that I have heard quite a bit of EDM.

But not nearly as much as I have, if you've only recently been looking into it on your spare time.

EDM is dance music

Actually, if you ask me, the term "Electronic Dance Music" is a bit of a misnomer (not that I care if people want to call it that), because not all electronic is necessarily for dancing -- there's an entire subgenre, ambient, which, like metal, seems diverse enough to be considered its own genre, and, anyway, it's played in what's called the "chillout room" at raves, which is where people go to take a break from the party, relax and just socialize.

And yeah, this whole time I could see where you're coming from, I just don't see why we can't just say that some music just has more to it than others, and leave it at that. Isn't that kinda true for lots of things? Is a veggie burger not still a burger even though we think beef pattie instead of soy pattie when we think of burgers? I would think so -- it's just a different kind of burger to me. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Why do you even care if people like to call something music that you don't think is music? I mean, what's the big deal? I don't care when people call electronic "techno" -- heck, I do it myself if I'm talking to someone who knows it only by that name. Because at the end of the day, it's just a word, and I know what they mean. The sun still rises in the morning. Sheesh!

Now, I believe I've made my point on this topic, so I have nothing more to say on it.

[Neo48]

Actually, if you ask me, the term "Electronic Dance Music" is a bit of a misnomer (not that I care if people want to call it that), because not all electronic is necessarily for dancing -- there's an entire subgenre of ambient, which, like metal, seems diverse enough to be considered its own genre, and, anyway, it's played in what's called the "chillout room" at raves, which is where people go to take a break from the party, relax and just socialize

Personally, I think it makes good racing music.

[LegoMuskCat]

It's hard to argue that a song or sound isn't music, it's easier to say that you don't like it. Just like how I don't like rap and hip-hop. They don't seem to have any "positive feeling" or message to it. I classify it as something evil which inspires only hate and injustice. Some how, hearing "I'm going to bust the cops and the white boys" doesn't sound very positive to me. It's actually pretty offensive to me as I'm white. I believe that they wouldn't like hearing "let's bust all the black guys". Talk about being a hypocrite...

Yes... Sadly, this is too true. It's a negative influence, overall. Either they're talking about bustin' some caps or how hard/sad/pathetic their lives are.

Oh, and rap sucks. =D

[Mizerith]

Actually, if you ask me, the term "Electronic Dance Music" is a bit of a misnomer (not that I care if people want to call it that), because not all electronic is necessarily for dancing -- there's an entire subgenre of ambient, which, like metal, seems diverse enough to be considered its own genre, and, anyway, it's played in what's called the "chillout room" at raves, which is where people go to take a break from the party, relax and just socialize

Personally, I think it makes good racing music.

That's cool. I personally like stuff like what you hear on Fire Field and Lightning from F-Zero GX the best as racing music. I especially love the final lap part of Lightning.

It's hard to argue that a song or sound isn't music, it's easier to say that you don't like it. Just like how I don't like rap and hip-hop. They don't seem to have any "positive feeling" or message to it. I classify it as something evil which inspires only hate and injustice. Some how, hearing "I'm going to bust the cops and the white boys" doesn't sound very positive to me. It's actually pretty offensive to me as I'm white. I believe that they wouldn't like hearing "let's bust all the black guys". Talk about being a hypocrite...

Yes... Sadly, this is too true. It's a negative influence, overall. Either they're talking about bustin' some caps or how hard/sad/pathetic their lives are.

Oh, and rap sucks. =D

It's not my cup of tea either, with the exception of Will Smith, and some reggae -- if that counts.

[LegoMuskCat]

It's not my cup of tea either, with the exception of Will Smith, and some reggae -- if that counts.

Older rap is better. MC Hammer, anyone? "U Can't Touch This" comes to mind. At least, I *think* that's considered rap, but I may be wrong as I admittedly don't have much knowledge on musical subjects!

But the newer things... I really dislike it.

[Danny]

Older rap is better. MC Hammer, anyone? "U Can't Touch This" comes to mind. At least, I *think* that's considered rap, but I may be wrong as I admittedly don't have much knowledge on musical subjects!

But the newer things... I really dislike it.

Same here, I really like the older types of songs as opposed to the newer ones which I also dislike. The newer ones seem to either be very depressing or violent. There are a few new titles which I like (mostly from animes), but overall, I'm mostly a retro song kind of guy.

[Mizerith]

It's not my cup of tea either, with the exception of Will Smith, and some reggae -- if that counts.

Older rap is better. MC Hammer, anyone? "U Can't Touch This" comes to mind. At least, I *think* that's considered rap, but I may be wrong as I admittedly don't have much knowledge on musical subjects!

But the newer things... I really dislike it.

Haha, I totally forgot about that. That was another one I liked. The parachute pants and everything. XD

[LegoMuskCat]

Same here, I really like the older types of songs as opposed to the newer ones which I also dislike. The newer ones seem to either be very depressing or violent. There are a few new titles which I like (mostly from animes), but overall, I'm mostly a retro song kind of guy.

Aye, I do like some anime music. I can't list anything specific since nothing comes to mind at the moment, though. D:

Haha, I totally forgot about that. That was another one I liked. The parachute pants and everything. XD

YES! HAMMER TIME!!

[Matti_Dethwish]

Europe will own you all.

No, seriously. They're underated as hell nowadays.

Other than that i usually do some Mötley Crüe or Guns n Roses, though i have to admit that George Michael and Eminem are great artists.

I could go on listing everything i litsen to, but it would be completely random and not very entertaining.

Keep rockin' everybody