MTG: What do you think of the new set?

[Forge]

There's got to be some more of us here at the Cave.<p>Have people seen the Betrayers of Kamigawa set?<p>And what do you think of it?

[Mizehrith]

Looks good so far. Seems like they did a pretty good job of carrying out the deadly, sneaky, overall kickass nature of the ninjas. I'm definitely looking forward to this set.

[Lord Khyron]

Eh.. as cheap and over-rated as Mirrodin/Dark Steel.<p>Where is the skill you needed? Where is the deck building of days of old, where you concentrated on few items to kick ass? When did it start becoming about who can pull out ridiculous illegal combos and disregard the rules completely? <p>Watch for even more idiots trying out illegal unlimited mana/turns/damage combos..<p>Watch more idiots getting pissed because you kick their ass with old old cards and they leave the table in disgust..<p>Magic stopped being fun the day the middle schoolers became widespread in it.<p>I miss the days of being able to KNOW what cards were put down, and what to expect. Miss the days where you could pestilance a newbies 12 1 point white creatures and watch them realize it was over.

[Mizehrith]

Where is the skill you needed? Where is the deck building of days of old, where you concentrated on few items to kick ass? When did it start becoming about who can pull out ridiculous illegal combos and disregard the rules completely? <p>Watch for even more idiots trying out illegal unlimited mana/turns/damage combos..

<br>It still requires skill to make a good deck these days, just maybe not as much as it did in the beginning because there weren't as many cards to work with back then. But nevertheless, a good amount of skill is still required to make a deck that can't easily be beaten, and to know exactly how to play it. And it's certainly not the case that the newer cards have advantage over the older, I mean look at the P9 — they gave you power the newer cards could only dream of giving, and they were there since the start! Nothing Wizards brings out nowadays could even hope to be as advantageous as Lotus, the Moxes, Time Walk, etc. I mean, take Mishra's Factory and any one of the Moxes and that's a turn-1 Juggernaut or Su-Chi right there. I don't think any of the newer cards allow a turn-1 5/3 or 4/4 without any drawbacks. And then, of course, there were the dual lands — they also helped out quite a bit in multicolour decks, but the newer dual lands either damage you when tapping for mana and/or have some other setback, making them inferior.<p>Also, the unlimited creatures/mana/turns/damage combos are, in fact, perfectly legal. The "unlimited" or "infinite" effects produced by the effects of two or more cards working together aren't really unlimited or infinite, but rather the case is that their effects can be looped as many times as the player sees fit because of the way in which the effects react to each other. Example: enchant Grim Monolith with Power Artifact, and tap it to add three colourless mana to your mana pool. Normally, you would have to pay four mana to untap it, but because Power Artifact reduces this 4 to a 2, you would use two of the mana floating in your mana pool to untap the Monolith, and then you'd tap it again to add another 3. Use 2 to untap it, and you now have one mana in your mana pool still waiting to be used up. Tap it again to add 3 mana, use 2 to untap, and you now have two mana still floating in your mana pool waiting to be used up. Because you're always left with one mana floating every time you carry out this procedure, you can repeat the process as many times as you want, racking up the mana to whatever number you see fit.<p>

Watch more idiots getting pissed because you kick their ass with old old cards and they leave the table in disgust..

<br>I'd just laugh at them if they did that. Poor sports, they'd be. I mean, it's not my fault if they can't realize it's just a game.<p>

Magic stopped being fun the day the middle schoolers became widespread in it.

<br>That's understandable.<p>

I miss the days of being able to KNOW what cards were put down, and what to expect. Miss the days where you could pestilance a newbies 12 1 point white creatures and watch them realize it was over.

<br>You can still do that. And as for not knowing what a card was when it was put down, well, I personally always saw that as part of the fun; I like being surprised sometimes, and not always knowing what to expect. Though, I can understand perfectly why that might not always be such a good thing.<br>

[Lord Khyron]

Actually, Wizards of the Coast issued errata back during 1999 that made unlimited mana/turn combos illegal..<p>especially with the enduring renewal, ornithopter and ashnods altar<p>most of the ulimited mana/turn combos violate the basic rules in many ways. To understand, you have to look at it closely. <p>That monolith card is also sort of banned you know?<p>And even a good player is going to be able to cancel that ability..<p>A true expert player doesn't need to rely on infinite combos to show they are good.<br><p>[size=small][Edit by Lord Khyron on [TIME]1106858009[/TIME]][/size]

[Ein Tyrion]

I remember when it took a brain to build a good deck, You'd buy a deck and 20 booster packs and then you might have a slim chance of making a good deck<p>Now ya just buy a deck and your set...<p>sigh`<br>

[Mizehrith]

<blockquote>Actually, Wizards of the Coast issued errata back during 1999 that made unlimited mana/turn combos illegal..<p>especially with the enduring renewal, ornithopter and ashnods altar<p>most of the ulimited mana/turn combos violate the basic rules in many ways. To understand, you have to look at it closely.[/quote]<br>I was completely unaware of this. Though, I'm not a tournament player, so that might be part of the reason why. I'll have to look into it more deeply, though; I'm not saying you're wrong, but something just doesn't add up.<p>

That monolith card is also sort of banned you know?

<br>Yes and no; from what I am to understand, it's legal in Urza Block, restricted in Vintage/T1 and then banned in every other format. (I used Wizards' official website as reference.)<p>

And even a good player is going to be able to cancel that ability..

<br>With the right cards and the right strategy, yes. This is why I can't see why they'd make such combos illegal; if they can be stopped, then they are no longer such a threat, and there would be no reason to make them illegal. Cards only get banned when nothing what-so-ever can be done to stop them, and yet, Power Artifact and Grim Monolith are both legal in Vintage. To make it fair, however, they had to limit the amount of Monoliths that could be put in a deck to 1; that way, the combo's not so easy to pull off any more, and thus not so devastatingly unfair.<p>

A true expert player doesn't need to rely on infinite combos to show they are good.

<br>I agree with you there. But I think it's all a matter of personal preference, in the end; some players like attacking head-on, where others would rather use combos to finish off their opponents. Neither style of play really has an advantage over the other, and they both require an equal amount of skill, so players are free to choose whichever style they get the most enjoyment out of. For example: it takes as much skill to put Power Artifact on a Grim Monolith and to know what to do from there as it does to use Mishra's Factory and a Mox to pull out a Su-Chi or Juggernaut on the first turn, because all that is required is that the player recognizes patterns in the rules and makes use of them. If anything, I'd say it takes a better understanding of the rules to know to successfully combine the effects of two or more cards than it would to just summon a creature and start attacking with it, or tap five lands and cast a 4-point Fireball. But in the end, each of these strategies is just as effective as the next, because all it takes is a simple Counterspell to stop it. So that's why I say just go with whatever you get most enjoyment out of. The way I see it: in PSO, Hunters are generally easier to use than Forces in the beginning, but does that necessarily mean they're better? (Or vice versa...)<br><p>[size=small][Edit by Mizehrith on [TIME]1106898032[/TIME]][/size]

[Forge]

I've been getting annoyed at the Rock-Paper-Scissors style of Standard nowadays that I've moved into Vintage.<p>I do quite like this set though. And my Ninja deck does rule.<p>Where are the sets like Odyssey or Invasion? I miss those. And Masques.

[Ein Tyrion]

I used to have a dominating Green/Black...All about me gaining health and doing direct damage...(i know you would think i would use white to gain health)<p>That was a true frankenstein deck...Cards from every series, but that was around the Onslaught times

[Forge]

White life gain is for wimps.<p>Healing Salve? Pah!<p>It's black life stealing that real men play with.<p>Although the green life gain can annoy me sometimes.<p>Mono-black - Life steal, then Death Cloud or Pestilence or something.

[Ein Tyrion]

Black is great because its so fricken sneaky....But grean just has power monsters...MONSTROUS MONSTERS OF MONSTROSITY!

[Forge]

Hmm...<p>I prefer funny black.<p>Such as Phage, the Untouchable.<p>Or Lord of the Pit.<p>[s]Or Blood Pet. [/S]

[Ein Tyrion]

BLOOD PET!!!!!!!! WHOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

[Forge]

You know it rocks.

[Ein Tyrion]

best creaTURE ever