Phantasy Star Cave Message Board

Del_Ian in another thread wrote:thanks to ST being a pile of steaming shit

I'm growing rather tired all the Sonic Team bashing you can read on almost every Phantasy Star Online/Universe related message board.

Now, pay attention and read this: people dedicating a lot of time in their lives to games made by Sonic Team continually call Sonic Team a steaming pile of shit, idiots, morons, you name it.

Does this make sense to you? If they really think this, why the hell are they still playing games made by Sonic Team? I'll tell you. Obviously Sonic Team is not the horrible developer people make them out to be, or their games would suck beyond belief and people wouldn't buy them (or at least the people referenced in this rant wouldn't).

I'll readily admit that back in the Dreamcast days, they could've been more friendly with their foreign players and given us the same content. The problem was, though, that the Japanese payed for their subscription, while the rest of the world played for free. With PSO Ver2, the US started paying, and then we did get most quests.

They could've been better about the cheating too, I guess, but since I've never been at the helm, maybe it isn't so easy to stop as people think it is.

With GameCube we got new content every once in a while too, yet people kept complaining.

With the release of PSO: Blue Burst, shit hit the fan. People kept whining about things not being available, difficulty modes not being out, etc. Um, people...
1) then don't play
2) this is a known business tactic, unlocking the game slowly so there's a steady stream of updates

The same thing happened with PSU. Sheesh, people quit it already! So the Japanese get more content. Well, get this, they got the game 3 months earlier! With Blue Burst, it was even about a whole year earlier, if memory serves. Of course they'll have more content by the time the games come out in our region! They had to go through the unlocking business just like us.

I guess the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

To summarise:
People bitch about no content.
Sonic Team gives content.
People bitch about cheating.

(Blue Burst and PSU come out)
People get content.
People bitch about not getting content fast enough.

People are never happy.

Well at least in my case, it's just brand loyalty. The only reason I still buy Sonic Team products is because they still make Phantasy Star. Were the franchise to change hands to WowWorks, or to Naka's new dev house, I'd never look back.

I think overall, it's a problem indicative of Sega as a whole, where real talent and real innovation anymore is largely squelched in favor of perceived mass-market appeal. Sega has lost their spirit, and their pride, since being merged with Sammy. The Dreamcast truly was Sega's last great hurrah, and now we only get hints and glimers of hope that Sega hasn't lost their touch. OutRun 2, for example, built on everything that made the original a classic, rather than resting on it, and then added so much more which innately felt like it belonged in an Outrun game. And more importantly, it was immediately and extremely FUN.

Now, perhaps it's the "Sports Fan Mentality", but I still stick by Sega though these darker times. I grew up with them, and Sega along with Sierra online were two of the game companies which most profoundly shaped my youth. I may bitch and complain and piss and moan, but hey, I'm still here as well. I still care about Sega, and know what they are capable of. Otherwise, I wouldn't care.

If Sonic Team bashing is a common theme on most message board, then I think there's probably some reason as to why people are angry. It's not likely just arbitrary whining if it's the general opinion.

Now, as far as people dedicating great amounts of time to games made by Sonic Team but still bitching about ST... that's the reality, and I'd say that people have a right to do so. If they pay money for a game developed by a name that used to guarantee quality, then they have a right to complain about the game. The fact that they shelled out money for the game gives them the right to criticise it, and Sonic Team is responsible to the consumer to deliver quality.

Like you said, with the Dreamcast version of PSO, most people didn't pay for online play at first, whereas the Japanese did, so they got the extra content. I can understand that, though paying for extra content should have been an option for non-Japanese players. However, when everybody pays for online play, yet the Japanese get the content first, then there are problems and Sonic Team is responsible to the consumer to adress these problems. If they pay the same amount, why should they get less?

As far as unlocking things slowly as a "business tactic" goes, if people are complaining and dissatisfied, then the tactic was a failure, wasn't it? The easiest way to see if a business tactic has succeeded is to see if the consumers are happy. Obviously they are not. There is such a thing as suspense, but take it too far and people perceive it as being withholding and lazy.

They could've been better about the cheating too, I guess, but since I've never been at the helm, maybe it isn't so easy to stop as people think it is.

Cheating became a huge problem later on in PSO, and it really should've been looked after better. I mean, hacking is inevitable, but majorly exploited glitches like duping and whatnot should be stopped immediately.

I think Sonic Team and Sega need a wake up call so they can realize what they're doing to their own name-- which is the most valuable marketing tool they have. Sega and Sonic Team by name alone used to promise quality, but now many people, myself included, are more than a little wary about what kind of products they put out.

If Sonic Team bashing is a common theme on most message board, then I think there's probably some reason as to why people are angry.

I don't think so. Just because something is popular doesn't mean it is good, the same thinking applies here. They just always find something to complain about. They're never happy with what they have.

The situation has definitely improved since the Dreamcast days. There's less cheating, we get new content regularly, yet people still brand Sonic Team as the ultimate evil.

If they pay money for a game developed by a name that used to guarantee quality, then they have a right to complain about the game.

The problem with this statement is that the games are quality. I think we can at least agree that PSO was. Also, the bashing is directed at Sonic Team. It's rarely about the actual game, except for people who feel that PSO was better than PSU, which is their own preference.

However, when everybody pays for online play, yet the Japanese get the content first, then there are problems and Sonic Team is responsible to the consumer to adress these problems.

They got the game earlier. Each region follows the same shedule, both have to wait an equal time for their content.

In the other case you'd have the Japanese complaining that the English-speaking regions got all the content that they had to wait a couple months for all in one go.

As far as unlocking things slowly as a "business tactic" goes, if people are complaining and dissatisfied, then the tactic was a failure, wasn't it?

This I can agree with.

You are correct in thinking that just because something is popular doesn't mean that it is good. However, you can only support arbitrary bitching if it's a certain amount of people. If it's quite common than it's not arbitrary, is it? Sure, there was complaining even back in the glory days of Sega, but it wasn't the prevalent attitude. Since it seems to be a prevalent attitude nowadays, then obviously a large amount of people are dissatisfied from having their toes stomped on, and probably more than once, too.

The problem with this statement is that the games are quality

I think a lot of people would disagree with you there. Sega games aren't what they used to be. Sure, these new games coming out aren't bad, but they don't exactly live up to Sega name most of the time. Case in point would be Sonic since he jumped to 3D (with the exception of Sonic and the Secret Rings, which is a totally excellent game).

However, that's for another time, since you seem to be talking about PSO and PSU, primarily. I would say that yes, both of those games are quality, in their right as games on their own. However, because they are both online, there is a larger responsibility that Sonic Team has to uphold... they have to ensure that the games stays quality. Bad online experiences can ruin the game entirely, so ST has to try its best to ensure that these bad experiences do not happen (as in, clamp down on cheating harder).

In the other case you'd have the Japanese complaining that the English-speaking regions got all the content that they had to wait a couple months for all in one go.

Yes, but the content wasn't available at all prior to the their release. They still got it first (they got the entire game first, but once it's available to one region it should be available to all regions. I mean, it's not like it's in development or the final stages or anything... it's tested and released, so there's no excuse. At least ST would have the excuse that the content wasn't out at all yet with the Japanese.

I'm not saying that it's entirely ST's fault-- I know that there are plenty of fans who are discontent simply based on the fact that PSU is different from PSO-- but I do think that ST and Sega as a whole has got to start trying harder. The Sega name has taken a beating ever since the Saturn, sometimes rightfully and sometimes not, and I think it's about time that they started to rebuild their reputation.

Yes, but the content wasn't available at all prior to the their release. They still got it first (they got the entire game first, but once it's available to one region it should be available to all regions. I mean, it's not like it's in development or the final stages or anything... it's tested and released, so there's no excuse. At least ST would have the excuse that the content wasn't out at all yet with the Japanese.

There is an excuse. It wouldn't be fair to the Japanese who did have to wait for content.

I'm not saying that it's entirely ST's fault-- I know that there are plenty of fans who are discontent simply based on the fact that PSU is different from PSO-- but I do think that ST and Sega as a whole has got to start trying harder.

As far as online goes, they are trying harder. There's less cheating, there's more content than before, and in a steady stream, at that. Yet people continue to bash them and don't show one bit of appreciation. Do we really want to return to the PSO version 1 days?

And when you have a fan base that doesn't do anything but complaining, no matter what you do, there isn't much motivation to try to do better.

EDIT:

I think a lot of people would disagree with you there. Sega games aren't what they used to be.

This is not about Sega, it's about Sonic Team.

Sega and Sonic Team by name alone used to promise quality

Nitpick, but this is not really the case for Sonic Team. Sonic Team was formed in the Saturn days, and their first release was NiGHTS: Into Dreams. Next was Burning Rangers, a really good game that could have used a couple months more work to sort out minor graphical glitches. Then came Sonic Adventure, and the rest...

So no, they don't have a long history of quality.

BenoitRen wrote:Nitpick, but this is not really the case for Sonic Team. Sonic Team was formed in the Saturn days, and their first release was NiGHTS: Into Dreams.

Wow...I hope that's a joke. Sonic Team was established in 1988. Granted, it was called "Sega AM8" until 1991, but the team has been around for nearly twenty years. Their first game was one you might of heard of, it was called "Sonic the Hedgehog".

The main problem, I think, is that Sonic Team has lost touch with the fans. Sonic games don't feel like Sonic and seem to be riding only on the namesake. Same with Phantasy Star (pardon me, but PSU was shit and so was PSO). They've lost their drive to make creative games and so they've earned the scorn of many gamers.

And that's not even including the shameful amount of bugs and glitches (LAWL HAY I RUN THRU LOOP AND FALL THRU EARTH OMGWTFBBQ?!1) ;p

-Corey

Wow...I hope that's a joke. Sonic Team was established in 1988. Granted, it was called "Sega AM8" until 1991, but the team has been around for nearly twenty years. Their first game was one you might of heard of, it was called "Sonic the Hedgehog".

No, it wasn't a joke. There wasn't a formal "Sonic Team" until NiGHTS. The "Sonic Team" credit you see in Sonic the Hedgehog refers to the group that came together just to develop that game for that one time. Sonic 2 was developed in the US with a different team, even.

Sonic games don't feel like Sonic and seem to be riding only on the namesake. Same with Phantasy Star (pardon me, but PSU was shit and so was PSO).

I strongly disagree. The Sonic games up to Sonic Heroes still felt like Sonic to me. I haven't played more recent Sonic titles. Phantasy Star Online retained the feel of Phantasy Star while doing something new. Can't speak of Phantasy Star Universe.

And that's not even including the shameful amount of bugs and glitches (LAWL HAY I RUN THRU LOOP AND FALL THRU EARTH OMGWTFBBQ?!1) ;p

Good thing Europe always gets the versions with the fewest bugs. I admit there were bugs and problems, but people really exaggarate about how often they happen and how severe they are.

EDIT:

The main problem, I think, is that Sonic Team has lost touch with the fans.

Fans are stupid. If Sonic Team listened to fans, we'd be playing 2D Sonic game rehashes and nothing else. It'd grow stale.

BenoitRen wrote:No, it wasn't a joke. There wasn't a formal "Sonic Team" until NiGHTS. The "Sonic Team" credit you see in Sonic the Hedgehog refers to the group that came together just to develop that game for that one time. Sonic 2 was developed in the US with a different team, even.

Wow. Apparently....err, everyone disagrees with you on that. Including the games themselves.

Sonic 2 was developed in the US with a different team, however Yuji Naka and a few others worked alongside that team and the game itself was attributed to Sonic Team.

And like I said, Sonic Team existed prior to Sonic the Hedgehog as Sega AM8 and renamed itself in 1991. Unless you can provide evidence of something else, that's what I'm taking as gospel (especially since I've been playing the games since Labor Day 1993 and remember seeing "Sonic Team" many times, despite not owning a Sega console after the Genesis).

I strongly disagree. The Sonic games up to Sonic Heroes still felt like Sonic to me. I haven't played more recent Sonic titles. Phantasy Star Online retained the feel of Phantasy Star while doing something new. Can't speak of Phantasy Star Universe.

That's fine. It's a subjective stance, and I don't intend to alter other people's opinions. Clearly, however, I'm not alone.

Good thing Europe always gets the versions with the fewest bugs. I admit there were bugs and problems, but people really exaggarate about how often they happen and how severe they are.

When I have to cross my fingers while playing Sonic Adventure on Gamecube (the so-called "Director's Cut") hoping to avoid falling through the floor, a glitch that was present in the original Dreamcast version, it's not exaggeration to say Sonic Team is being sloppy.

And Europe getting games with the least bugs? Surely you're joking, unless you intend to say that most Europeans complaining about sloppy transitions to PAL and the errors they cause are over-exaggerating as well.

EDIT:
Fans are stupid. If Sonic Team listened to fans, we'd be playing 2D Sonic game rehashes and nothing else. It'd grow stale.

Fans are stupid? Doesn't that mean you're calling yourself stupid? O_o;;

So instead we're playing 3D rehashes of the first Sonic Adventure with stupid shit like Tails in a Gundam and Shadow with a Glock 17. Oh yeah, they're breaking new ground alright >_>

-Corey

When I have to cross my fingers while playing Sonic Adventure on Gamecube (the so-called "Director's Cut") hoping to avoid falling through the floor, a glitch that was present in the original Dreamcast version, it's not exaggeration to say Sonic Team is being sloppy.

I can't say I've seen that bug often. Not in the Dreamcast version, anyway.

And Europe getting games with the least bugs? Surely you're joking, unless you intend to say that most Europeans complaining about sloppy transitions to PAL and the errors they cause are over-exaggerating as well.

The transition to PAL is a whole other can of worms. I'm talking about actual game bugs. When it comes to PAL, Sonic Team has been very good with it, however, always offering a PAL 60 Hz mode since the Dreamcast.

Fans are stupid? Doesn't that mean you're calling yourself stupid? O_o;;

Possibly. But what I mean is, take all the fans of a series or other fictional work together. They can't agree on anything, and will cram out ridiculous ideas most of the time. They often can't think outside of the box either.

So instead we're playing 3D rehashes of the first Sonic Adventure

Anyone who has played the actual games knows that's bullshit.

BenoitRen wrote:Anyone who has played the actual games knows that's bullshit.

*looks at collection, notes Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, Sonic for PS3 and Sonic and the Secret Rings for Wii*

...well, at least you dropped the Sonic Team foolishness >_>;;

They often can't think outside of the box either.

I repeat: Shadow. Glock 17. Tails. Gundam. If that's "outside of the box," they need to get back in the fucking box

-Corey

Well, PSP said what I was going to say about Sonic Team. It may not have been called "Sonic Team" at various points in its history, but it was essentially the same thing, different only in formal name.

There is an excuse. It wouldn't be fair to the Japanese who did have to wait for content.

But they only had to wait for content because it wasn't it out. It wasn't being withheld, so bitching about having to wait for the released content would be like bitching about having to wait for the game to be developed, which is obviously utterly ridiculous.

Waiting around for content just to uphold a schedule is utterly stupid. Nobody wants to wait a couple months for something that should've been there at the get-go, especially if they know exactly what the update is going to be. Releasing content at a pace is all well and good, as long as it's a surprise (which is why, when done correctly, it can be an effective business tactic). However, because of the lag, everybody will always know what's coming next, which makes the tactic totally ineffective.

This is not about Sega, it's about Sonic Team.

They're practically synonymous. Sega at the height of its power was primarily a result of the workings of Sonic Team (or AM8, or whatever incarnation you want to name). Consequentially, when Sega is in a period where it has not been producing great games, we see that Sonic Team is also a party to the same thing.

I can't say I've seen that bug often. Not in the Dreamcast version, anyway.

Dude, the only version of the original Sonic Adventure that I played was the Dreamcast one, and I found the glitch to be pretty commonplace.

Fans are stupid. If Sonic Team listened to fans, we'd be playing 2D Sonic game rehashes and nothing else. It'd grow stale

It's not the fans' job to design a game. Hey, if it had played as well as any of the 2D Sonics, I bet Sonic Adventure would've been a lot more popular.

Unfortunately we got a sloppy, overblown, melodramatic Sonic game with a story that took itself too seriously, and some of the worst voice acting I've ever seen in a high-budget game. And then what does ST do? Basically repeats the whole thing with Sonic Adventure 2, but instead of trying to make the game any better, they add a "dark" anti-hero (who's a bloody hedgehog, which is hard to take serious) to try to get in touch with their audience. Great move. Sonic Heroes wasn't as bad in that respect, but it still didn't feel like Sonic, per se, and why Sonic Team would base another game on the same concept as Knuckles Chaotix, which didn't do well in the first place, is beyond me.

And then we have Shadow the Hedgehog, which to me is enough evidence as to why ST is out of touch with their audience. LOL KIDS WILL BUY A GAME IF WE GIVE EVIL SONIC A GUN!! Except that everybody thought it was a stupid idea, and the actual shooting action was half assed anyway.

Actions speak louder than words. Just playing any of the recent Sonic games should explain to you what's wrong with ST, and by extension, Sega.

(pardon me, but PSU was shit and so was PSO)

As far as PSO and PSU goes, I thought both were pretty good games in their own rights. Maybe not as good as the original Phantasy Star series, but still good. PSO was very well done... there wasn't too much, aside from a bit of online regulation, that struck me as sloppy. PSU, from what I've played, is also good, but I can see sloppiness sneaking in. This is something that Sega and ST need to adress, because before long, Sega won't be able to rest on its laurels like it has been for so long.

*looks at collection, notes Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, Sonic for PS3 and Sonic and the Secret Rings for Wii*

...well, at least you dropped the Sonic Team foolishness >_>;;

I guess I'll have to explain why they're not Sonic Adventure rehashes. They were less and less Sonic Adventure as time went on.

Sonic Adventure 2 dropped the adventure field, and was more like the older Sonic games in that action stages followed one after another.

Sonic Heroes dropped the story altogether, introduced a new team mechanic, and was pretty close to the classic games in execution, except being in 3D and controlling a team. To call this a Sonic Adventure rehash is far-fetched.

I still haven't played Shadow the Hedgehog, but it's my understanding that it's a multi-path game with action stages following one another.

I repeat: Shadow. Glock 17. Tails. Gundam. If that's "outside of the box," they need to get back in the fucking box

It's always easier to see the bad things, of course.

-Instead of being a Sonic clone, Knuckles got to treasure hunt.
-E-102 shooting stages.
-Team mechanic in Sonic Heroes.
-More focus on story.
-Offering more than one viewpoint on the story.

But they only had to wait for content because it wasn't it out.

BZZT! Wrong! They unlocked the planets one by one.

They're practically synonymous. Sega at the height of its power was primarily a result of the workings of Sonic Team (or AM8, or whatever incarnation you want to name). Consequentially, when Sega is in a period where it has not been producing great games, we see that Sonic Team is also a party to the same thing.

They're absolutely not synonymous. Granted, Sonic is a well-known video game character, but Sega has many other talented development teams that have made their mark, the most prevalent one being AM2, for their Virtua franchise. See also Overworks for Sakura Taisen and Skies of Arcadia, Hitmaker for Crazy Taxi, and Smilebit for Jet Set Radio.

It's not the fans' job to design a game. Hey, if it had played as well as any of the 2D Sonics, I bet Sonic Adventure would've been a lot more popular.

Who are you kidding? First, just because it would be 2D wouldn't mean it would play well (just look at the GBA Sonic games). Secondly, Sonic Adventure was and probably still is the best sold Dreamcast title. It was quite popular and critically acclaimed, despite its shortcomings.

Unfortunately we got a sloppy, overblown, melodramatic Sonic game with a story that took itself too seriously

You would have preferred a cookie-cutter story? The game was unique in that it was very consistent in having six characters with their own roles in the story that you could play. The Homing Attack was a great idea to overcome the inherent problem in 3D of not being able to judge the distance well.

I think you're being far too harsh on the game.

the worst voice acting I've ever seen in a high-budget game

Eh, people are never content with voice acting in video games, and I feel they often exaggarate about it. Same with anime.

And then what does ST do? Basically repeats the whole thing with Sonic Adventure 2, but instead of trying to make the game any better, they add a "dark" anti-hero

That's quite a simplistic view. They tightened the controls, made the game more action-packed, and threw in a Light/Dark theme. The Sonic/Shadow stages were especially good.

Sonic Heroes wasn't as bad in that respect, but it still didn't feel like Sonic, per se

Seems like it isn't Sonic anymore if it's more than just Sonic running.

and why Sonic Team would base another game on the same concept as Knuckles Chaotix, which didn't do well in the first place, is beyond me

And why not? You seem to be okay with other franchises and Sonic games repeating the same concept. In this case, they fleshed it out a bit.

Knuckles Chaotix didn't do well because it was on the 32X. 'nuff said.

I would just like to point out that the "Sonic Team" most people associate with isn't exactly the AM8 of days of yore. Remember that Sonic Team once employed several people, such as Rieko Kodama who did much of the design work for Sonic and Sonic 2. Sonic Team essentially "split" in half, with some of them going to various development houses. Rieko and Tohru went to OverWorks where they created Skies of Arcadia. Yuji Naka stayed on with Sonic Team until just recently when he split off to create his own development house second party to Sega.

Phantasy Star is only in Sonic Team's hands because it was once an AM8 project, and instead of following the talent, the franchise instead simply followed the name of the development house it was originally created under. So really, who you now call Sonic Team are largely an entirely new development team, whereas the real heart and soul of ST has long since moved on.

Yuji Naka stayed on with Sonic Team until just recently when he split off to create his own development house second party to Sega.

I heard differently. He was assigned to a second party as the head of it to help them. Of course, the end result is the same, Yuji Naka isn't part of Sonic Team anymore.