Is Lutz... Noah?

[Starlight]

This is a question I'm seriously imposing, and is halfway inspired from a PS question in the PS question game thread. I was on Camineet.net today, and there was actually an article arguing that Noah and Lutz are two different people.<p>Any comments or thoughts?<br>

[Malakai]

Starlight, what you read on Camineet.net is a nothing more than a delusional imagining of Mike Ripplinger who swears on his grandmother's grave that they are two different people with no real evidence to back the theory.<p>Nonetheless, they are one and the same person.<p>I would go into full detail, but I don't feel to do so and I'm sure any other forum member such as LS, Siren, Benoit, or Mono could explain the technicalities to the tee. I'll just say that the whole confusion originates from a translation error in the english version of PSI, which gives the name of Noah as Alis' companion. In the japanese version this is clear as the name given is Lutz. It seems only certain few with an english version of the game have come up with this theory. And they are very, very, very few.

[Forge]

Malakai is correct, Starlight.<p>The error is that in translation of PS1 into English, the name of the mage was different. In the Japanese version, it was Lutz. In the English, it was Noah.<p>POSSIBLE SPOILER:<br>This is corrected in the English series later, when Rolf meets the Esper within the Esper Mansion who calls himself Lutz and says that he fought with Alis long ago. Therefore, they must be exactly the same person.

[Lord Khyron]

And the evil theories of Mike Ripp, despit proven wrong, still influence people o.o<p>His PSO theories have been proven false since PSO ver 2 on DC, yet he still keeps them up.<p>It's sad ;.; Mike is so confusing people

[Starlight]

Thank you, guys. I always <i>thought</i> that Noah <i>was</i> Lutz, and too, found the difference in names just to be a translation error or something. But still, when I read that, I guess it still surprised me. O_o

[Dorrinal Blackmantle]

Oh don't go believing them so quickly! Noah is supposed to be Lutz but it's not necessarily true - in the English continuity. "Translation error" is a misnomer because it was intentional - the people who localized PS to English thought it would be a good idea to name him Noah. (You can't get from "Lutz" to "Noah" no matter how bad your Japanese is)<p>Based on dialogue in PS4 one can determine that Noah is the "First-Generation Lutz", for what it's worth, but I don't think you can prove that Noah and Lutz from PS2 are the same person.<p>FYI Starlight, this is one of the oldest and most heated debates in all of Phantasy Star - and I love it!

[Dorrinal Blackmantle]

<blockquote><i>Originally posted by Forge</i><br>POSSIBLE SPOILER:<br>This is corrected in the English series later, when Rolf meets the Esper within the Esper Mansion who calls himself Lutz and says that he fought with Alis long ago. Therefore, they must be exactly the same person.<br></blockquote><p>Incorrect. Here is the script, taken from http://www.phantasy-star.net/psii/psiitalk.html<p>SPOILER - PHANTASY STAR 2<p><blockquote>- (Lutz)- You finally made it. I'm Lutz, the last telemental on Algo. You seem surprised that I know you name. Don't you remember? This is the second time we have met. I saved you from death after an accident on a spacetrip with your parents when you were 10. What woke me was Alis' scream. So you are the last descendant of Alis who fought to protect Algo. Beautiful Alis, the symbol of Algo, was fighting the dark force in that dream. The dark force was trying to destroy Algo, but in the end was itself destroyed.<br> But that doesn't mean that there is no longer anyone trying to destroy Algo. <br> You, Rolf, must arm yourself for battle. One valuable item is the aeroprism-- it will let you see that which cannot be seen. Also arm yourself with Nei's weapons. Prepare yourself, and then I will tell you about the enemy's plans.<p>...<p> - (Lutz)- Good job! You are truly a descendant of Alis. I acknowledge that you are qualified to succeed the power of light and the memory of darkness. One thousand years ago, after the battles of Alis, Algo obtained peace for a short while. People were satisfied with what was given to them by those they loved, and did not ask for more. And it was their pleasure to give to their loved ones more than they wanted.<br> However, when Mother Brain arrived, Algo changed. We got confused because Mother Brain created so many things, we didn't really know what we needed.<br> People started to fight for what Mother Brain created. They no longer thought that kindly about Alis. People ven thought that they could not live without Mother Brain. I think that a devil's trap is behind Mother Brain. This caused the people's mind to weaken. The trap also leads Algo to destruction.<br> I don't know who made the trap, or why. There is a Neisword in the box. When you pick it up, it will rescue you from the evil side.</blockquote><p>Despite what you want to believe, Lutz offers no more than a history lesson. Sure he could have been there, but he doesn't make that clear, and you can't prove it.

[Benoit]

Yeah, Lutz never says that he fought with Alis.<p>Sure, the name change could have been intentional, but the two translators weren't the same.<p>PSI was translated by a Japanese guy, who did a pretty good job. Why he might have chosen Noah as a name instead of Lutz? Perhaps because he thought it made more sense for English-speaking people. Noah is a mythical name, just like Odin is.<p>PSII was translated by someone else, possibly a team. It was a great translation for the time, though by today's standards, of course, it's not bad, but not high quality either. Who says that this translator knew PSI? And if he did, would he want to name Lutz after the Noah? Obviously it seems that the translator wanted to do a faithful translation.<br> <blockquote>Noah is supposed to be Lutz but it's not necessarily true - in the English continuity.</blockquote><br>The 'two continuities' theory is the biggest crap ever invented.

[Dorrinal Blackmantle]

<blockquote><i>Originally posted by Benoit</i><p>Yeah, Lutz never says that he fought with Alis.<p>Sure, the name change could have been intentional, but the two translators weren't the same.<p>PSI was translated by a Japanese guy, who did a pretty good job. Why he might have chosen Noah as a name instead of Lutz? Perhaps because he thought it made more sense for English-speaking people. Noah is a mythical name, just like Odin is.<p>PSII was translated by someone else, possibly a team. It was a great translation for the time, though by today's standards, of course, it's not bad, but not high quality either. Who says that this translator knew PSI? And if he did, would he want to name Lutz after the Noah? Obviously it seems that the translator wanted to do a faithful translation.<br> <br>The 'two continuities' theory is the biggest crap ever invented.<br></blockquote><p>When I said "intentional" I meant "deliberate". The name was changed to Noah, a foolish change in hindsight.<p>"Two continuities" isn't a theory, it's a description of the situation. The English version can and should stand independently of the Japanese version. When you look at the English versions, alone, you cannot prove that Noah is Lutz. Which is a real pain in the ass ^_^<p>And if you think there are not two versions of Phantasy Star then consider that there are many people who have played PS1 and do not know the differences in the Japanese game.

[Lord Khyron]

Time for Lord Khyron to step in.. <p>In PS IV, It is proven that Lutz was the one who faced Lassic in the air castle with Alisa.<p>You honestly believe that after PS 1, someone else named Lutz went into the air castle and fought someone else already dead? <p>Despite the fact that there is no mention of this anywhere else?<p>The only person that was in the Air Castle was the same telemental in PS1 and 2. <p>The fact that Lashiec recognizes Rune as Lutz, and the Xe-A-thouls call him being there before proves that Noah = Lutz.<p>By PS IV, Lutz is a TITLE, not a name. <p>I'm sorry, But the dialogue of PS IV proves that Noah = Lutz. If you ignore that, then you're willing to claim there was another visit to a nonexistent air castle?<p>And now Lord Khyron will post from the Retranslated PS 2 script, proving that even in the japanese version, all Lutz does is give a history lesson.<p> <blockquote><br>Rutsu<br>Hello Yushisu. I am Rutsu, the last Esper of Algor. I can see you seem to be surprised that I know your name. I have already seen you once, when you were 10 years old. You were on a space trip with your parents, when that accident occurred. Both of your parents died in that accident, including you. However, I brought you back to life with the light of awakening. I had awakened because I heard Arisa's scream (note: Richard translated this as "I have awakened," but I changed it to "I had awakened"). Yes, you are the last descendant of Arisa, who fought and protected Algor nearly 1000 years ago. You have seen the nightmare. Yes, that nightmare in which the beautiful symbol of Algol, Arisa, is fighting the force of darkness, Daruku Farusu. Daruku Farusu once attempted to destroy Algol. But, Daruku Farusu failed. However, that did not eliminate all of the forces of darkness attempting to destroy Algol. Now we face those forces of darkness, Yushisu. You must fight them, and stop them. Collect the weapons of Nei in order to vanquish them for eternity. I shall give you this Aeroprism. With this you can see what you were not able to see before. I shall find out if you are the truly the "chosen one" if you can find the weapons of Nei. Only then I shall tell you the forces of darkness' plot, and guide you to them to stop them. <p>Talk to Lutz with weapons of Nei<br>You are indeed the descendant of Arisa, Yushisu. You are worthy to inherit the light's power and the memories of darkness. 1000 years ago, Alyssa and her team's battle to bring peace back in Algor was successful. People understood the true meaning of happiness, where they did not ask for more than what their loved ones gave them, and gave more than what their loved ones asked for. However, after the appearance of the Mother Brain, Algol began to change. The Mother Brain created more than what we needed, and caused everyone to forget what was really important. People began to fight for what Mother Brain created, and forgot the kindly philosophy of Arisa. People are now even beginning to believe they will not be able to live without the Mother Brain. I feel there is a trap of the devil hiding behind Mother Brain, a mastermind who made the Algolians weak and feeble. I feel it! It is a powerful force attempting to destroy Algol again. I don't know who is or why someone would do this, but we must stop them before it is too late. This box contains the Nei sword. Take this with you, and then I shall teleport you to the domain of the darkness. <p></blockquote> <p>Now as you see, same thing in the japanese script. PS IV sets this all straight. <p>[size=small][Edit by Lord Khyron on [TIME]1114534561[/TIME]][/size]

[ThePeaGuy]

<blockquote><i>Originally posted by Dorrinal Blackmantle</i><p>Incorrect. Here is the script, taken from http://www.phantasy-star.net/psii/psiitalk.html<p>SPOILER - PHANTASY STAR 2<p>Despite what you want to believe, Lutz offers no more than a history lesson. Sure he could have been there, but he doesn't make that clear, and you can't prove it.<br></blockquote><p>It also does not prove the fact that the Lutz of PS2 is the second-generation Lutz. It also mentions in the game that this blue-haired person who resides in the Esper Mansion has lived for over 1000 years.<p>

What the Espers say in the Mansion<br> - You must be Rolf. We've been expecting you.<br> - This man told us that he would awaken when you arrive.<br> - This man wakes up once every ten years.<br> - The glorious man who used to fight to save Algo is buried here.<br> - This man was put into cold-sleep in order to watch over the future of Algo.<br> - When Mother Brain came, this man decided to hide in Dezo.<br> - We have been working for him since many generations ago.

<p>Instead of using a broad range of volcabulary to make myself look convincing like this Mike Ripp fellow has done, I suggest you read this part of the script I have posted from PS4, look at Lutz' portrait from the cutscenes of that scenario, and then compare it to Noah's portrait from PS1. Feel free to repeat this process if needed.<br>It's stange how the admin of PSDB has forgotten to post that crucial cutscence from PS4 on his/her's website. If he/she could've done this, the online PS community wouldn't need to argue over this Noah is/ is not Lutz debate for nearly ten years.<p><blockquote>KYRA: Thank you for rescuing me. My name is Kyra Tierney. Who are you<br> all?<p>RIKA: We've been sent by your friends. At any rate, I'm glad you're<br> safe!<p>KYRA: I see...So that's why you came all the way here.<p>CHAZ: It was pretty reckless of you to come here alone!<p>KYRA: I felt I had to do something to make it all right! It just made<br> my blood boil to see all those people in such pain... But those<br> carnivorous trees, they were far tougher than what I heard...<p>CHAZ: Yeah...I wonder if there's a better way to tackle them?<p>KYRA: I may know a way... Our leader should be able to tell us! Our...<br> chief of the Esper Mansion... Lutz... About two thousand years<br> ago... He, along with a heroine called Alis, saved Algo and has<br> come to be known as a legendary wizard!<p>CHAZ: Wait a minute! Are you saying a person from two thousand years<br> ago is still alive?<p>KYRA: It's said he is still alive in the deepest depths of the Esper<br> Mansion! But they won't let anyone except the top-ranking people<br> enter the mansion. That's why I've only seen him once, and from<br> afar at that, during some ceremony! But... you can even recognize<br> from afar - he's intelligent... graceful...classy... just a<br> wonderful person! I've no doubt that he would know of a good way<br> to tackle this problem!</blockquote> <p><p>[size=small][Edit by ThePeaGuy on [TIME]1114538854[/TIME]][/size]

[Dorrinal Blackmantle]

<blockquote><i>Originally posted by Lord Khyron</i><p>Time for Lord Khyron to step in.. <p>In PS IV, It is proven that Lutz was the one who faced Lassic in the air castle with Alisa.<p>(snip)<p>By PS IV, Lutz is a TITLE, not a name. <p>I'm sorry, But the dialogue of PS IV proves that Noah = Lutz. If you ignore that, then you're willing to claim there was another visit to a nonexistent air castle?<p>(snip pointless PS2 quote)<br></blockquote><p>It is clear that Noah is the "First-Generation Lutz" from PS4's dialogue (see below). That does NOT prove that the man Rolf meets on Dezo is Noah! No need to claim that a second person went to the Air Castle to defeat Lassic a second time.<p>SPOILERS - PHANTASY STAR IV<br>Taken from the full script at<br>http://www.phantasy-star.net/psiv/psivtalk4.html<p> <blockquote><br>CHAZ: Rune, I have one more question... Who is that 'Person' those witches were talking about?<br>RUNE: The first generation Lutz and his companions fought a man in the Air Castle... That man's name was Lashiec!<br></blockquote><p>Rune clearly refers to Noah as the "first generation Lutz" but it still doesn't say anything about the Telemental from PS2.

[ThePeaGuy]

The first generation Lutz is the original Lutz. It doesn't take rocket science to figure that out.<p>First<p>1. The ordinal number matching the number one in a series.<br>2. The one coming, occurring, or ranking before or above all others.<br>3. The beginning; the outset: from the first; at first. <p>You see? Noah IS Lutz.<p>[size=small][Edit by ThePeaGuy on [TIME]1114537655[/TIME]][/size]

[Dorrinal Blackmantle]

Actually I agree with you. The person whose identity is at question is the guy in Esper Mansion in PS2.

[Benoit]

<blockquote>The English version can and should stand independently of the Japanese version.</blockquote><br>Not at all. Some name changes and changed objects don't make a new continuity.<br> <blockquote>When you look at the English versions, alone, you cannot prove that Noah is Lutz.</blockquote><br>Actually, you can.<p>You can say that Espers have two names. Noah's master had two. Tajim and Tarzimal. It wouldn't be such a stretch then to say that Noah also had Lutz as a name.<p>Why doesn't Lutz then reference to him fighting with Alis when he's talking to Rolf in PSII? Answer: Lutz ain't in a pub. He's not going to tell Rolf about that when he's trying to motivate him to fight.<p>As for the main in PSII being Lutz, this line says enough:<br> <blockquote> - The glorious man who used to fight to save Algo is buried here.</blockquote><br>That could only be Noah/Lutz, in this context. No more dangers were there after Alis saved Algo.