Rant: Sonic Team bashing

[LaconianShot]

-Instead of being a Sonic clone, Knuckles got to treasure hunt.
-E-102 shooting stages.
-Team mechanic in Sonic Heroes.
-More focus on story.
-Offering more than one viewpoint on the story.

You're right. These ideas were so innovative. Treasure hunting with Knuckles? Well, I haven't seen that in a million other games. Imagine, collecting things in a videogame! How innovative!
The E-102 shooting stages weren't innovative either... they felt like the obligatory shooting levels tossed in at the last little bit to try to add some variety. They too suffered from a bad camera, which is unfortunate, because they probably would've been fun if the camera hadn't got in the way all the time.
The Team mechanic, seeing as how it was taken from a previous Sonic game anyway, certainly was not innovative.
As for more than one viewpoint... it's been done in others games plenty too. Some of the different characters were fun, but nobody living or dead has ever wanted to play as Big the Cat.

They're absolutely not synonymous. Granted, Sonic is a well-known video game character, but Sega has many other talented development teams that have made their mark, the most prevalent one being AM2, for their Virtua franchise. See also Overworks for Sakura Taisen and Skies of Arcadia, Hitmaker for Crazy Taxi, and Smilebit for Jet Set Radio.

Of course there have been other development to make their mark, and they have made great games, but saying that Sonic (direct product of ST) isn't synonymous with Sega is like saying that Mario isn't synonymous with Nintendo.

Who are you kidding? First, just because it would be 2D wouldn't mean it would play well (just look at the GBA Sonic games). Secondly, Sonic Adventure was and probably still is the best sold Dreamcast title. It was quite popular and critically acclaimed, despite its shortcomings.

I'm not saying that 2D makes the gameplay good, but the greatest thing about the 2D Sonic games was the gameplay. If the 3D Sonic games had possessed the fluidity and solid gameplay of the 2D Sonics, then perhaps it would've played better.
As for Sonic Adventure being popular, I think that it was mainly because people were just happy to play a real 3D Sonic game. And back then, it was pretty cool. However, when we look back, we can start to see the sloppiness of Sega and Sonic Team, which is clearer in light of the games made since Sonic Adventure.

You would have preferred a cookie-cutter story? The game was unique in that it was very consistent in having six characters with their own roles in the story that you could play.

The story was pretty close to cookie-cutter. It was filled with an unbelievable amount of clichés. Six players was nice, but it's not like it's a new concept... branching story lines have been around for quite a while.

That's quite a simplistic view. They tightened the controls, made the game more action-packed, and threw in a Light/Dark theme. The Sonic/Shadow stages were especially good.

The controls didn't strike me as too much better, but that's my opinion. As for throwing in a Light/Dark theme, that's got to be one of the most clichéd plot devices ever. Like I said, "dark" anti-hero to try to make the game more appealing.

And why not? You seem to be okay with other franchises and Sonic games repeating the same concept. In this case, they fleshed it out a bit.

Just because I expect the same level of quality out of the new Sonic games as did of the old ones does not mean I want the same concept. They are two very different things. The old games might've had a few problems, like most games, but they were never what I would consider to be "sloppy". Unfortunately, the new Sonic games, and a lot of Sega games nowadays are sloppy.

[BenoitRen]

You're right. These ideas were so innovative.

For a Sonic game, they were.

As for Sonic Adventure being popular, I think that it was mainly because people were just happy to play a real 3D Sonic game.

Apologist arguments. People liked it so much they were looking forward to Sonic Adventure 2. The want for the Sonic Adventure 2 demo included with Phantasy Star Online is proof of that.

As for throwing in a Light/Dark theme, that's got to be one of the most clichéd plot devices ever.

I didn't hear you complaining about that with PSO: Episode III.

Of course there have been other development to make their mark, and they have made great games, but saying that Sonic (direct product of ST) isn't synonymous with Sega is like saying that Mario isn't synonymous with Nintendo.

Sonic != Sonic Team
Sonic is synonymous with Sega. But Sonic Team is not. That's like saying whatever team develops Mario games is synonymous with Nintendo.

The story was pretty close to cookie-cutter.

What is it now, melodramatic and emo, or cookie-cutter? They're not the same.

[Dr. Casey]

-Instead of being a Sonic clone, Knuckles got to treasure hunt.
-E-102 shooting stages.
-Team mechanic in Sonic Heroes.
-More focus on story.
-Offering more than one viewpoint on the story.

You're right. These ideas were so innovative. Treasure hunting with Knuckles? Well, I haven't seen that in a million other games. Imagine, collecting things in a videogame! How innovative!
The E-102 shooting stages weren't innovative either... they felt like the obligatory shooting levels tossed in at the last little bit to try to add some variety. They too suffered from a bad camera, which is unfortunate, because they probably would've been fun if the camera hadn't got in the way all the time.
The Team mechanic, seeing as how it was taken from a previous Sonic game anyway, certainly was not innovative.
As for more than one viewpoint... it's been done in others games plenty too. Some of the different characters were fun, but nobody living or dead has ever wanted to play as Big the Cat.

Regardless of whether or not these ideas have ever been implemented in another game before, the point is that Sonic Team was trying to bring something new to this series. It's a commendable effort.

That said, I honestly don't get why there's been so much backlash against Sonic Team as of late. The Genesis games are quite dull and empty to me now (though this is mainly because I've grown tired of the platformer genre; I used to love the games), and my clear-cut favorite game in the series - Sonic Battle for the Gameboy Advance - is a recent entry. There's also a higher emphasis placed on character interaction; nothing from the older games can match up to the way the characters react differently depending on who they're matched up with in Sonic Advance 3.

[LaconianShot]

Apologist arguments. People liked it so much they were looking forward to Sonic Adventure 2. The want for the Sonic Adventure 2 demo included with Phantasy Star Online is proof of that.

Hm, there was a lot more negative feedback about the game than you seem to be remembering. Critically acclaimed? Initially, but between then and now, we've had the pleasure of playing some very polished and decent platformers, and Sonic Adventure looks very sloppy in comparison. That's why Sonic Adventure DX got lower ratings than the original, despite actually fixing some of the glitches (and unfortunately adding others).

I didn't hear you complaining about that with PSO: Episode III

Except in PSO: Episode III it was basically a theme in name only. So the Arkz were called the Dark side and the Hunters were called the Hero side. So what? The alignment assigned to them was more of a commentary on the groups' perceived roles in society than on the actual nature of the groups themselves. It was not a case of just good or just evil. The great thing about Ep.III was that is took a concept that has been overdone and added such great narrative layers to it that it ended up being new and refreshing. I cannot say the same about the dark and light concept in Sonic Adventure.

Sonic != Sonic Team
Sonic is synonymous with Sega. But Sonic Team is not. That's like saying whatever team develops Mario games is synonymous with Nintendo.

Since Sonic Team is not an independent developer, but rather an in-house developer, there's no way that Sonic Team could not be synonymous with Sega. The personale may change, but there's no such thing as Sonic Team outside of Sega.

What is it now, melodramatic and emo, or cookie-cutter? They're not the same.

(Well, I don't recall saying emo, but whatever...)
In any case, since melodramatic and emo are over-done trends in storytelling, yes, those qualities do make the story cookie-cutter.

Regardless of whether or not these ideas have ever been implemented in another game before, the point is that Sonic Team was trying to bring something new to this series. It's a commendable effort.

Rehashing concepts and ideas is commendable? Perhaps if Sonic Adventure or any of it's sucessors did something new with these concepts, but instead they were pretty much run-of-the-mill interpretations of ideas that have already been implemented in games before.
I'm sorry, I expect more than mediocrity from my Sonic games, which sadly is mainly what we've been getting.

[BenoitRen]

The Sonic Adventure games are mainly platformer games, so the story really is only an extra. I don't really expect them to do something revolutionary with it, though the first Sonic Adventure is to be commended for how it pulled off showing the story through six characters.

I don't have much more to add than say that I think people are being too critical of these games. They're fun, and in the end, that's all that matters. I prefer just enjoying the games instead of tearing my hair out because of some bad camera placement. It's just an additional challenge to me.

[The HuBBs]

Well its been a few years but now I am not really a fan of ST. There was a glimmer of hope when Naka left but nothing has really changed.

The only good sonic games lately(Rush, Advance, battleVsWhatever) are for the handhelds and are made by "other" internal sega teams.

PSU is lackluster somewhat and sadly reaks of averageness, not even surpassing PSO in any regard whatsoever.

BTW who can forget the crapfest of games like Billy Hatcher, ShadowTH, AstroBoy PS2, and Sonic Riders.

But I see that glimmer of hope again and we will see how NiGHTS turns out.

I'm still a fan of Puyo Puyo however.