Musical Discussion (There. Not spam.)

[Sir Nicholas]

Your argument would make sense if trance was, ah, actually boring, Dorrinal. What "boring" trance songs have you listened to, if I may be so nosy?

PS There's no such thing as jazz-rap. A Tribe Callled Quest is Abstract and Progressive Hip-hop.

To Khyron: I didn't fake my death, didn't attempt online suicide. Has it occured you to privately contact me and be a little less pretentious? To shelve your pride and hear me out? No? Didn't think so.

And yes, I do blame them, it's just licsensing songs that are ridiculously easy to obtain by a group of fanboys. Doesn't make it piss me off any less.

[Dorrinal]

Your argument would make sense if trance was, ah, actually boring, Dorrinal. What "boring" trance songs have you listened to, if I may be so nosy?

What argument? It is my opinion that all trance I've ever heard is boring. I am unable to provide song names as I often listen to the songs on radio (traditional or internet) and don't have access to a track list. Suffice it to say I find the music dull. I don't think it's my style.

PS There's no such thing as jazz-rap. A Tribe Callled Quest is Abstract and Progressive Hip-hop.

Quit being so goddamn condescending. Less than a second on google or wikipedia will tell you that your self-appointed Ultimate Music Classification System is by no account universal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz_rap

It's easy not to put your foot in your mouth when you have all the time in the world to research and edit your post. Go for a cheap shot like this and you'll just get flamed.

1. read
2. read again
3. think/research
4. type
5. correct mistakes
6. post

[BenoitRen]

1. read
2. read again
3. think/research
4. type
5. correct mistakes
6. post
7. ???
8. profit!

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[Dorrinal]

Hahahaha! I don't think that joke will ever get old.

[Sir Nicholas]

Your argument would make sense if trance was, ah, actually boring, Dorrinal. What "boring" trance songs have you listened to, if I may be so nosy?

What argument? It is my opinion that all trance I've ever heard is boring. I am unable to provide song names as I often listen to the songs on radio (traditional or internet) and don't have access to a track list. Suffice it to say I find the music dull. I don't think it's my style.

Alright, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I'm not about to sit here and tell you your opinion is wrong. I was just curious.

PS There's no such thing as jazz-rap. A Tribe Callled Quest is Abstract and Progressive Hip-hop.

Quit being so goddamn condescending. Less than a second on google or wikipedia will tell you that your self-appointed Ultimate Music Classification System is by no account universal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz_rap

It's easy not to put your foot in your mouth when you have all the time in the world to research and edit your post. Go for a cheap shot like this and you'll just get flamed.

1. read
2. read again
3. think/research
4. type
5. correct mistakes
6. post

Who was going for a cheap shot? More importantly, what's the universal musical classification system? Ishkur of wiki? The answer is neither. They're both just different names for the same thing. Like Epic trance, Uplifting trance, McTrance, all mean the same thing. You say potato, I say potato.

[LaconianShot]

If music requires emotion, does that mean all EDM artists are emotionless robots? Do they not feel a sense of inspiration, as they start stringing together different beats, different sounds or making collaborations?

No, it means that when they're composing these songs, they're not trying to make music for the sake of music. They want a hit single. They want to get on the dance charts. They want to sell albums. They are not trying new things, they are not going anywhere or saying anything with their "music". If the song will sell albums, than they've succeeded for no better reason than to make money... not music. It's the equivilant of popcorn movies: they sell, but they don't mean anything. Unfortunately this is true for the majority of "EDM" artists that I have listened to... and it comes through in their "music".

What makes music then? Is it only a choice pick of instruments that can be flooded with the emotion of a composer?

I didn't specify instruments. I think nearly any instrument can be musical. However, when you start using instruments which you have no concept of, and no appreciation of, than you become disconnected with the process of making music-- an important step, to be sure. Now reread that sentence and note the operative word-- "using". Soon this lack of appreciation or understanding becomes exploitation, and a product is churned out and labeled as "music" when there is actually no musical process. This ties into what I said above, about creating "songs" for the sake of profit instead of music.

How is it that you can say they had any idea of what beautiful music was on new technology?

It's not new technology, though. EDM artists did not pioneer the use of synthesizers. Progressive rock bands and jazz fusions artists did. Back when these bands first started using electronic effects and synthesizers, they were very experimental. Rick Wakeman's synthesizers were always experimental and, at first, iffy. Same with Patrick Moraz. Geddy Lee was one of the first to use the Moog synthesizers. If it wasn't for these musicians using synth back when it was still essentially prototype, it likely would've died out. However, even back in that early stage, they made music on their instruments. Maybe we didn't have the comprehension that we do now, but you could feel the music being made. You don't have to have pre-established standards in order to know music. It's moving. That's the reason why Bach compositions move practically everybody-- they're so utterly musical that you can't help but be moved. These EDM artists should be judged by the same level of playing as demonstrated by the musicians that pioneered the instrument. They don't necessarily have to be a virtuoso like Wakeman was, but they should be expected to make music.

Music is not bounded by what a person feels is fair to play, or how much skill one has

No, you're right (and this is something that I've already said). Music is not bound by skill necessarily. Five notes can be beautiful and musical. However, every bit of skill helps... especially being able to play the instrument you're using.

and I believe anyone hear would have just as hard a time to learn ad drum kit or a drum machine

Not true at all. Click click click. I just programmed a drum machine. You can program a beat for a drum machine in a couple minutes that would take you a week to learn on a kit. Man, a drum machine is essentially a glorified metronome. They're easy to use, and that's why they are exploitable.

I thought you said something about lack of instruments taking away from musicality, but maybe I read it wrong -- and if so, my mistake.

Essentially what I said was the the disconnect brought about using instruments that you don't actually play or have experienced playing with is harmful and often detrimental the music making process itself. I believe some of my replies above have kind of went into this deeper.

So I'm just wondering why music should have to be about all these different things, and not about just enjoying the sounds and letting them move you and what not.

But dancing is not about the music itself, it's about the atmosphere. You don't need music to dance... you need 4 beats in bar and a drum machine that is programmed to play them at a certain tempo. Like I've said before, music is more than notes and rythms.

And isn't techno colloquially known as music?

Unfortunately a lot of people are mistaken in thinking that anything with notes and rythms can be qualified as music. It's more than just an aural or sonic concept. Maybe tabloids qualify as literature in the broad, unused sense, but typically the word literature implies some quality in our lexicon. So should music.

And how would you know whether or not the tracks of EDM producers mean anything to them, unless you asked them all about it?

The finished product is more than proof enough. When I listen to the majority of EDM, I feel nothing but a contrived effort to get people to dance. They want a beat so people can dance. That does not equate to music, because people will dance to something whether it means something to them or not.

Why can't it be that some music is just more "bodied", for lack of a better word, than other music?

If it's not "bodied", then it's not music. If it doesn't mean anything, then it's not music. We've got to stop thinking of music as just sound. It's not just sound. Nor is reading notes off of sheet music equivalent to music. So, you played the notes and rythms off the page right. Big deal... did it go anywhere? Did it mean anything? To me, EDM does not go anywhere. It does not mean anything. It's as overproduced and exploitative as modern day pop music is. It's not music created for the sake of making music, but for the sake of getting people dancing, selling singles, making the dance charts, and earning money. Some EDM producer decides he wants to make a song, so he uses fake instruments to produce the sound he wants, without realizing or appreciating the musical process involved with it. It bothers me because I see non-musicians producing a song just so it can make some money. The same is true of pop music-- Brittney Spears is not in creative control. She is used to follow whatever trends in pop culture will yield results. Her producer uses her sound, her image, and whatever else to sell albums. Of course she buys into it as well so she is as much to blame. However, that is not music. It's fabrication.

EDM is a genre that is dependent on dance. It's dance music. Therefore, it already has limiting factors on its creativity. Obviously you can't go into elaborate time signatures... people can't dance to that. However, that's not such a big deal. Music is still possible within those confines. However, the majority of what I've heard has been music for the sake of pandering to the dance audience. Therefore, it all falls into similar perimeters, because people don't care what they're dancing to, as long as they can dance to it. So instead of concentrating on the music, EDM producers seem to concentrate on pandering to the crowd, trying to make a hit. That's why I hear so much homogeny within the genre. It's dead because artists are afraid to move beyond the proven formula and create something musical instead of something that is tried and tested to get people dancing.

I know that there are producers who do make music in EDM. I've heard very few, but I know that there are those out there who create music for the sake of music, not the sake of money. The use of artificial instruments and drum machines by these artists are not exploitative, because they are being used in a musical manner, which is what they were intended for-- as opposed to being used to turn a profit. However, these are not the majority. The reason why the genre seems so tired and repetitive? Because the same old clichés work. EDM is enormously popular in Europe, and as long as people are dancing, it really doesn't matter what else goes into the song. You don't need to be moved by music to dance to it. You just need a rythm, and rythm alone is not music.

If you like EDM, that's fine. I just hope you don't buy into the huge amount of overproduced, clichéd, emotionless, nonmusical stuff out there that was intended to turn a profit instead make a contribution to music. I understand that not all of it is like that, but the majority is, and that's why I have such a negative opinion of the genre as a whole.

Even more so that you didn't think to ask those that know the full truth about that little scandal.

Well now, any way we slice it, you were the one who caused it. Even if, for some reason (none of which I can hypothesize) you were not the cause, you still perpetuated it by letting it stand uncorrected. At the time, we were friends, I believe. Therefore, in the interest of that it would've been your responsiblity to come to us about your little stunt, because usually friends don't fake their death online and then expect others to come to them and make things right. Since you caused the whole thing, it is your responsibility to account for it, not the other way around. So be a man about it. Take responsibility and account for your actions.

[Mizerith]

Okay, LS, if it's emotion you're looking for, there is actually plenty of techno that shows emotion. I should know, since I've been listening to the stuff for over ten years straight. It's always been my favourite genre. But anyway, there's happy hardcore, which is the happy, bubbly subgenre, there's some depressed-sounding stuff like VNV Nation's "Further" -- Eusis Landale can vouch for that one, then there's all this goth and darkwave, and there's some angry-sounding stuff like "Ventilator" by Acumen Nation and "Oxycetylene" by Cubanate. And as for trance, some of the stuff that I hear is described as uplifting, and within the genre of trance is my favourite subgenre, goa/psychedelic trance, which I feel is often dark, ominous, brooding, and sometimes even "evil" and trippy. I could go on, but you get the idea. It seems to me you have only really heard the mainstream stuff and are generalising.

And anyway, even if techno wasn't music, I don't see any practical merit in not including it in the big ole category of music regardless, because it's closer to music than anything else (I mean it certainly doesn't fall under animation or video games), and plus it would seem frivolous and wasteful to me to have separate stores, forum threads and what not for "music" and "techno" just because of some technicality.

So why don't we just drop this argument, and just enjoy the damn music, or non-music. Whatever you want to call it. Or don't enjoy it. I don't care, it makes no difference to me.

[Neo48]

As we have seemed to clarrify our stances and beliefs Laconian, I will take my leave from this topic. I'm sure we will talk more about it on msn.

[Sir Nicholas]

To Laco: Forgoing the musical discussion at this point, I do admit fault on one thing-I should have corrected things sooner. As I explained to others, the reason I didn't is because I wanted to do it slowly. Talk to one person at a time. First Ein, then Heather...I cleared my name gradually. I didn't want to come out and tel a story as fascinating and strange as mine without at least a little support. In retrospect, this was a mistake. Consequentally, I don't blame people for their attitudes toward this situation. I do, however, wish they would actually talk to me after a few good rips, especially after I asked them to. But I won't pursue people with the truth. Ultimately, they need to want to hear it. They won't believe it if I force it on them uninvited.

[Lord Khyron]

Wizard's Rules!

Ze 10th:

"Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self."

Phantom: Chapter 12, Page #134, US Soft Cover (revealed by Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander).

Explanation by Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander: "People who for whatever reason don't want to see the truth can be acutely hostile to it and shrill in their denunciation of it. They frequently turn their venomous antagonism on whoever dares to point out that truth ... To those seeking the truth, it's a matter of simple, rational, self interest to always keep reality in view. Truth is rooted in reality, after all, not the imagination."

Ze First..

"People will believe anything they want to believe, or fear to believe."

Wizard's First Rule: Chapter 36, Page #397, US Hard Cover (revealed by Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander).

Explanation by Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander: "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People’s heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool."

Mm... Very wise words in this situation. Some of the people in this discussion are very delusional.

[LegoMuskCat]

LOL INTERNET.

[Lord Khyron]

How you became the fresh prince of tha intarnets!

[BenoitRen]

That's it. Any more attempts at drama or flame-bait instead of proper music discussion, and I will have to lock this thread.

You have been warned.

[LegoMuskCat]

That's it. Any more attempts at drama or flame-bait instead of proper music discussion, and I will have to lock this thread.

You have been warned.

You have to admit... This is getting pretty dramatic! *swoons* Sorry, couldn't help myself. To be honest, I actually wish you would lock this thread, as I doubt that people will be able to contain their excitement! In the meantime, it makes for a good soap opera!

Anyhow, I've never really cared for techno, trance, any of that stuff. A lot of it sounds repetitive...matter of fact, much of it is! However, some if it is all right, even if, for the most part, much of it is tasteless electronic beats.

Personally, I love music played with instruments...such as the piano. Many old composers that are no longer with us, like Beethoven, created beautiful pieces of music. It's kind of funny, actually. A deaf man having more musical talent than most of the so-called artists of today.

[LaconianShot]

It seems to me you have only really heard the mainstream stuff and are generalising.

Yeah, pretty much. But it's a large quantity of what I've heard that reflects my impression of the genre. I'm not saying that musical EDM doesn't exist, but a vast quanitity of the genre seems to be generic non-music. It's like today's pop music... sure there is some music in the genre, but most of it is contrived, overproduced, soulless music.
I'd be happy if EDM was more musical. I like musical EDM... it's just that it's too few and too far between for me to say that the entire genre itself is musical.

I don't blame people for their attitudes toward this situation. I do, however, wish they would actually talk to me after a few good rips, especially after I asked them to.

Alright, well, fair is fair, right? Check your PM, then.

It's kind of funny, actually. A deaf man having more musical talent than most of the so-called artists of today.

Heheheheh, funny and true.