Anchored Dark Force

[Black Sword]

There will be spoilers, so beware if you haven't played through all the games.

This thread is what happens when you let me get on the train to go to work without enough sleep. Let's review, shall we?

Since ancient times in Algo, there has been a cycle where calamities occur every one thousand years. That's because a personification of evil called Dark Force is resurrected every thousand years!

And once every thousand years, when the strength of the seal weakens, the most intense part of the The Profound Darkness' hate-filled spirit is able to break through the portal and come to Algo in physical form.

Oh, the greatest, my one and only ultimate god, Dark Force!

We know that Dark Force is a part of a being with power that we cannot comprehend and that Dark Force itself is beyond human understanding. While that is not enough to consider either of them uncategorically as "gods," it is enough to convince their followers. We also know that Dark Force has ability to lend its power to its minions, as demonstrated by Zio when the evil magician warped the battlefield into "Nightmare."

HOWEVER, Dark Force has always been seen to use a base. In PS1, he used the Governor of Motavia as his host. In PS2, he planted himself within Mother Brain. In PS3, even though Dark Force was bound by Orakio's sword, his host continued to live for over a thousand years. In PS4, he used Kuran, Garubrek Tower, and Seth to spread his power.

In essence, I advance the theory that without a host of some kind, Dark Force is unable to sustain himself in our dimension for long periods of time. We've seen him act without a host only briefly, and that Dark Force was unique as the longest-lived of the Profound Darkness' minions. Most of the time, their lifespans are relatively short, measured in years, not millennium.

Regardless, what we've seen is that Dark Force is an extradimensional being that can be hurt by "light" attacks. This suggests that the Edge and our dimension are yin and yang, with the elements of one unhealthy for the denizens of the opposite. This is further suggested by Le Roof, who states:

As long as you have those Rings of the Stars, you should be able to withstand the largest part of the power of The Darkness.

The Rings act as filters that prevent the Edge from...what? Ripping our puny heroes to their constituent atoms? Possible! In the long run, it's possible that Dark Force needs his hosts in order to prevent the same thing from happening to him. The demons of the Edge likely follow similar rules of some sort, though it's possible Dark Force's power lingers on, considering the evil temples of Dezo in PS2.

So what do you think, guys?

[carlsojos]

Since Dark Force is supposedly pure hatred, could it be that the host is the seed that defines the exact form it takes? That would mimic the behavior of crystal formation in a solution, as well as explain why the Seth Dark Force had a wicked blade for an arm. Such an effect could likely also help PD determine new features to incorporate into future versions of Dark Force.

Also, those rings might actually act more like ablative armor, in that they absorb the damage from the hostile environment, by slowly leaking enchantment into the wielders to counteract the effects.

[BenoitRen]

We know that Dark Force is a part of a being with power that we cannot comprehend

If you define emotions as being a part of someone, that's true. But Dark Force isn't exclusive to the Profound Darkness.

In PS2, he planted himself within Mother Brain.

Did he? The party encounters Pandora's Box, from which Dark Force appears.

In PS4, he used Kuran, Garubrek Tower, and Seth to spread his power.

Seth was not a host. He was a disguise created by Dark Force. No one on Motavia knows the guy.

[carlsojos]

Seth was not a host. He was a disguise created by Dark Force. No one on Motavia knows the guy.

I know this was discussed at length elsewhere, but Seth's equipment suggests he might not have been of that era. I posited a hypothesis that he may have been an archeologist from the PS II era, that PD chose to hang onto for a rainy day. A guy presumed dead a thousand year ago wouldn't have any friends or relatives, either.

[BenoitRen]

So, you think that Seth is actually a revived PSII archeologist? We know Dark Force has the ability to turn dead people into zombies, but to revive humans to use as a host? That sounds fishy.

[carlsojos]

@benoit Not necessarily revive, but perhaps remember who it kills. There's Lashiec, which could be argued whether he truly is Lassic. Seth could be along the same lines.

[BenoitRen]

I don't get your explanation. And are you seriously doubting that Lashiec is Lassic?

[carlsojos]

I simply don't have sufficient evidence in my own mind to fully justify my statement- I assume that you would determine whether it is true or false, and extrapolate that information to Seth. My mind just ain't working right at the moment.

[Black Sword]

@Benoit

Dark Force isn't exclusive to the Profund Darkness? Care to explain that statement?

He was hanging upside down from the ceiling in a way that suggested a tumor or other kind of malign growth. Pandora's Box was a segregation of gameplay and story, much like how Dark Force just pops up in PS1.

I don't think there's enough evidence to argue that no one on Motavia knows Seth or that he's just a disguise. We're talking about an entire planet.

[BenoitRen]

Dark Force isn't exclusive to the Profund Darkness? Care to explain that statement?

Basically, Dark Force is a concentration of negative emotions. Those negative emotions can come from anywhere, not just the Profound Darkness.

Pandora's Box was a segregation of gameplay and story, much like how Dark Force just pops up in PS1.

What makes you think that it's a segregation?

I don't think there's enough evidence to argue that no one on Motavia knows Seth or that he's just a disguise.

There is enough evidence. Here's Rune after Seth's unmasking:

It can't be! Does this mean that Dark Force has been mascarading as a human? That evil-minded monster!

The Compendium strengthens this as well:

He looks like a good-natured middle-aged man, but he is actually Dark Force disguised in human form.

If you go talk to Hahn while Seth is in the party:

Hmmm...a historian.... I don't know this face.

If Seth is an archeologist, he ought to be known at the academy. Yet he isn't.

(Note: the quote came from the script of the 30 May 1994 translation prototype, as scripts from the final game never bothered to check for dialogue changes after Seth joined the party.)

Another point is that after Dark Force's defeat, Seth isn't freed. In the original Phantasy Star, the governor was freed after Dark Force was defeated.

The only point I've ever seen to support that Seth is a host is his scream at the sight of the Aero-Prism light, which can easily be explained in the context of Seth being a disguise.

[Wing-0]

I always thought there was something weird with Seth, but I didn't picture him as being from the PSII era... Maybe some avatar DF picked, but not necessarily a dead human.

I do disagree with Benoit on the DF is not exclusive to the PD thing, though. In the games, if my muddy memory doesn't fail me, we never see a manifestation of the people's ill will. I think that DF is a spawn of the PD that can survive an undetermined amount of time in the "light" side.

[Black Sword]

@Benoit

Your assertion about Dark Force is canonically flawed. Le Roof explicitly calls Dark Force "the most intense part of the The Profound Darkness' hate-filled spirit," supporting WING-0's observation.

It's a segregation for a couple reasons.

1) The form Dark Force assumes is not consistent with his fast attack forms in PS1 and 4, and is more consistent with his Computer Possession form in 4.
2) His sheer bulk in that form is not exactly easily hidden in a box, especially when he's the reason Mother Brain went insane in the first place
3) Dark Force requires physical contact to corrupt machine systems
4) After fighting your way through the Noah, few will suspect an innocent box of holding the penultimate boss, giving players a nasty surprise
5) Cheaper and quicker to re-use a box sprite and make a boss battle sprite than to create both an in-game sprite and a boss battle sprite. Trust me on that one.
6) PS2 had used segregation before, namely when Rolf is unable to use the teleport station in Paseo to go directly to other cities at the start of the game.

If it's in the Compendium like that, I don't really have a leg to stand on, though I still find the Compendium statement ambiguous. On the Aero-Prism score and why he isn't saved: Dude, he's violently torn apart at the subatomic level right before our eyes. I think it would hurt a bit, shiny light of goodness present or not.

I am, however, surprised that you would count Hahn's statement he hasn't seen Seth before so strongly. It's a university. I wouldn't be surprised if Hahn didn't know quite a few faces. Hell, I didn't even know half the faces of the professors at my school, and it's a small school of of like 100 faculty or so. Piata's definitely a university town, with dozens of professors and their assistants running around, and if it's an archaeologist, gone for long stretches at a time exploring? Even less likely to be recognized.

[IndispensablePeaGuy]

I explained all of this to Benoit god knows how many times, but it never sinks in.

Expect him to re-use the "DF II came from the Earthmen, lol lol lol" counterargument over and over.

[BenoitRen]

In the games, if my muddy memory doesn't fail me, we never see a manifestation of the people's ill will.

We do. The Dark Force on the Noah came from Earth. *winks at PeaGuy*

Your assertion about Dark Force is canonically flawed. Le Roof explicitly calls Dark Force "the most intense part of the The Profound Darkness' hate-filled spirit," supporting WING-0's observation.

It's the most intense part of its negative emotions. This is poorly worded in the English script, but clear in the Japanese script:

And so, at certain times, when the seal had grown weak, The Profound Darkness’ pent-up hate separated from its base, took on form, and made its way to Algol. And that, of course, was "Dark Force".

His sheer bulk in that form is not exactly easily hidden in a box, especially when he's the reason Mother Brain went insane in the first place

As Seth shows in PSIV, Dark Force can alter its body. Furthermore, Dark Force hasn't necessarily caused Mother Brain to go insane. She was built and controlled by the Earthmen.

After fighting your way through the Noah, few will suspect an innocent box of holding the penultimate boss, giving players a nasty surprise

This doesn't support your argument. It's just the motivation behind the sequence.

Cheaper and quicker to re-use a box sprite and make a boss battle sprite than to create both an in-game sprite and a boss battle sprite. Trust me on that one.

I don't see how this supports your stance. The game intelligently fades the screen as soon as the box opens, which means it doesn't have to show anything coming out of the box in front of the party.

PS2 had used segregation before, namely when Rolf is unable to use the teleport station in Paseo to go directly to other cities at the start of the game.

However, this isn't related, and a very obvious gameplay rule. What other games features bosses in boxes that were never in boxes in the first place?

On the Aero-Prism score and why he isn't saved: Dude, he's violently torn apart at the subatomic level right before our eyes. I think it would hurt a bit, shiny light of goodness present or not.

But the fact remains that in the original, the host didn't die. We don't see the transformation in the original, but it would be kind of counter-productive to kill the host in order to fight the party in his more natural form. And why would the Aero-Prism kill a human? All it does is reveal the unseen. It makes sense that it just disspelled Dark Force's disguise.

I am, however, surprised that you would count Hahn's statement he hasn't seen Seth before so strongly. It's a university. I wouldn't be surprised if Hahn didn't know quite a few faces.

Yet Hahn's line is in the game for a reason. Remember that this is a video game.

By the way, if you really believed there was not enough evidence to support Seth being a host or not, you shouldn't have pushed him forward as an example of him being a host either.

I explained all of this to Benoit god knows how many times, but it never sinks in.

Of course it doesn't if you're wrong and I have important plot points as counter-arguments.

[Black Sword]

Time loop theories are automatically rejected due to the ambiguous nature of PSIII, so pick a different argument, Benoit. Plus, they're just wish fulfillment.

The Japanese and English scripts say the same bloody thing, so you don't have a leg to stand on there. Dark Force is exclusive to the Profound Darkness.

Why Dark Force would hide in a box? "Oh, this box looks cool, let me chill out here!" Second, why would he adopt a stationary body? We see him in stationary bodies exactly twice: once on Noah, once on Kuran. All of his other forms are mobile. He needed to be directly plugged into Kuran to control the machines. Not only that, Mother Brain was in charge of Algo for a long time, but only really started going crazy relatively recently...long enough for Dark Force to infect and corrupt her.

You never said that the segregation had to be only in canon, and I stand behind my knowledge of game design to support that it was a segregation of gameplay and story. Amazingly enough, money and it's lack has a huge impact on game design. Also, Rolf had obviously already been to Paseo, so yes, it still counts.

I wasn't aware of the Compendium entry, but given the vagaries of Japanese, it doesn't make my idea untenable. Just look at the difficulties in translating "artificial human" from Japanese to English, due to all the subtle connotations lost during translation. Besides, we don't know how Dark Force reacts to the magic of the Aero Prism. It's possible he tore the host apart in surprise, or discarded it because the host no longer had a purpose. The Governor of Motavia would have remained useful had DF won PS1, so that may be why the guv survives and Seth does not.

And yes, it's a video game. It also means false leads are planted, so you can't depend on that.