Anchored Dark Force

[BenoitRen]

In other words, you think those lines are said by a Xe-A-Thoul or other dark monster? That's an interesting possibility.

[Zucca]

Wow. Newer actually thought the dialogue that way.
It would make much sense if DF itself isn't speaking those words.
But in the other hand an evil minded spirit could speak like that of itself.

Think we need the proper translation from japanese here... That could be just a translation error.

[BenoitRen]

No problem, this is from the Japanese retranslation:

Ha ha ha ha ha ha!! Welcome to the ultimate trap, the Pandora's box! Inside it contains the force of darkness that you call the Dark False. This is our little gift to your world from us!

The Earthmen leader also says:

We knew the evil force, Dark Farusu, existed in our minds, but was unable to suppress it.

[Zucca]

No problem, this is from the Japanese retranslation:

Ha ha ha ha ha ha!! Welcome to the ultimate trap, the Pandora's box! Inside it contains the force of darkness that you call the Dark False. This is our little gift to your world from us!

Could it be one of the earthmen who said that? Unfortunately we have no evidence to the way or another.

The Earthmen leader also says:

We knew the evil force, Dark Farusu, existed in our minds, but was unable to suppress it.

The big quetion here is: Did the Earthmen were so evil to begin with that DF teamed with them or was DF corrupting their minds to make them Evil? Or was DF created from their evil thoughts*?

*) I don't belive in this, since PD "spits" DFs to our dimension (correct me if I'm wrong).

[BenoitRen]

Or was DF created from their evil thoughts*?

That's what I've been arguing this entire thread.

[TigerNightmare]

So, welcome me to here.

I have more data to further complicate this debate in this topic I wish I did not want to be a part of but cannot help myself. The following videos have annotated translations for the remake of PSII, which, of course, has expanded story and dialogue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SuxtaSvhlg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly7M1J7TlKI

In the first video, the "speaker" of the dialogue mentioning a gift from our world to yours is shown as "strange voice". In the second video, the strange voice speaks again to introduce Mother Brain. If PSg2 is the definitive canon holding precedent over the original and assuming this translation is accurate, the person speaking is an Earth man, probably the monkey-bearded leader standing at the end.

I will now present my own theories.

Arguably, the phrase "a gift from our world to yours" does not necessarily mean that Dark Force is from Earth, merely that inflicting Dark Force upon Eusis and co. is a gift from the Earth survivors.

What I believe is that a great exodus occurred that caused several people of Earth to escape together on several ships. The one that reached Algol is Noah. During the ending of PSII, the Earth people on Noah acknowledge the errors of their ways, of being responsible for their planet's destruction. Such a devastating admission of guilt would not commit an entire people to repeat their same mistakes, would not make them willingly commit to their nature as an evil destructive force, like locusts (Earth locusts, not those orange things with claws and weird penises). The Earth's peoples intentions were good. Perhaps misguided or ignorant of the effects of their plans, they tried to make Algol a better place to live. And in some ways, they succeeded, especially on Motavia, transforming the planet from a desert death trap into a lush, green paradise. While many of the people have grown lazy and without purpose, accustomed to a way of life that required no direction or effort, it is a bit of a utopian/dystopian allegory about technology making life easier but not necessarily better. The Mother Brain system was also put into place long before PSII started, implying that Dark Force did not resurface until when the game did start, when things started to go wrong.

It is probably safe to assume that many of the Earth people from Noah chose to settle on the three planets, and you just know that most of them chose to live on Parma during the construction of the Mother Brain system, not requiring all that terraforming crap. So why would the Earth people destroy themselves? They wouldn't.

So, this is what happens. The millennial seal weakening occurs and the Profound Darkness manifests itself as Dark Force after Mother Brain already controls Algol. Dark Force then realizes the potential darkness within the Earth people. And much like Lashiec, Dark Force corrupts them, twists them into the worst reflection of themselves. It masquerades as a mere tool of mass destruction, a watchdog to protect themselves and Mother Brain, unknowingly being manipulated by it. The Earth people then cause the mess at the Biosystems Lab in an attempt to weaken/control the population that still have a fighting spirit (Eusis' crew, mostly). Being a descendant of Alisa, Dark Force probably manipulated the Earth people to put priority on Eusis and co., hence the frame-up. By the time our heroes shut down Biosystems and open the dams, the Earth people are too far gone. No amount of reason will make them believe that destroying Parma is anything but an unavoidable necessity.

Until the PSIV era, this is the weakest the seal has ever been, so the Profound Darkness manifests in at least one other Dark Force to pursue the Parma ships.

I believe the PSII heroes managed to defeat the "several hundred/thousand Earthmen", perhaps at the cost of most of, if not all, their lives. But the damage was already done. PSIV refers to these events and the immediate aftermath as The Great Collapse. There's also mention of a large chunk of Parma crashing into Motavia, probably shortly after the events of PSII. The people of Algol were weak and dependent on Mother Brain, and after the system collapsed, the domed farms on Motavia stopped producing food, Climatrol would not bear water and most plant life would die out. The teleport system would cease functioning and the natural indigenous creatures not created from Biosystems (before Zio brings those monsters back) would return to the land and thus make it a death sentence for any of the soft, lazy people who wanted or needed to leave city limits. Millions would perish. Dark Force was defeated, but it most surely won. The Earth people were merely pawns.

The PSIII ending for Adan and Crys imply that the Alisa III discovers Earth and intends to settle there. Perhaps the planet was not destroyed but rendered mostly uninhabitable by nuclear fallout or similar disaster and 2,000+ years was enough time for the planet to heal and start over. The Crys ending shows a close-up of a green planet that looks like Earth, giving further argument that this is a distant future Earth that was destroyed and recovered over millennia, with plant life overgrowth visible from orbit. An easier explanation is that these planets are not Earth, simply habitable planets that also happen to be the third from the star.

The Aron ending specifically says that they travel through time and space through a black hole to find Earth. I believe the scripted endings were meant to be taken at face value, but it's up to us to correct discrepancies. For example, if this Earth is from the past, from before it was destroyed, how the hell were they able to broadcast to the Alisa III in the Parmans' native language? Lots of stories that would normally be multi-lingual are just given the license, but I say it's a way towards a better explanation. In PS1, magic spells and the sphere would allow you to communicate with intelligent creatures in order to avoid fighting them. In PSII, a special hat would allow you to understand Dezorans. By the PSIV era, no spells or magic hats were necessary for the races to speak to each other, either from the Dezorans and Motavians being completely assimilated by Parman culture or the languages were merged unbeknownst to us Firefly style.

What if the Aron timeline did not bring the Alisa III to the past, but the future? What if another Parman ship had already settled on this future Earth? Even if you account for translation technology like that of Star Trek, that kind of thing is lost on the war-torn Alisa III and any indigenous Earth people would need to sample the Parman language before they can develop a translator for it. To explain that an uninhabited planet will still have its original name, there would surely be leftover remnants from the original population.

The Sean ending is the only one where they do not approach a settlement planet that's the third one out from the brightest nearby star. There are probably other surviving ships besides the Neo Parma. PSIV retcons the PSIII elders by saying several of the ships landed safely on Motavia and Dezoris, so it is very likely that more of these 400 ships survived and perhaps their destruction was just a deception created by Dark Force to make the Alisa III inhabitants despair in their isolation.

It is widely accepted that Dark Force was the cause of the original Layan-Orakio war. As said in the opening, all combatants were killed. It is my belief that Dark Force allowed itself to be defeated and trapped by Orakio's sword. Because it already won. I don't believe Dark Force ever truly died in the entire game. For the most part, all knowledge that they were from Algol, that they were even on a ship, was lost, and the Orakians and Layans were deadlocked in an eternal struggle. It wasn't until Rhys came around that things started to get better.

The key to defeating Dark Force doesn't seem to be much more than shoot and stab it a lot. Dark Force has last words and merely vanishes at the end of all PSIII timelines. Returning once every 1,000 years was just something they used until it was further defined in PSIV. There's no good way to explain why Dark Force would go away and sleep exactly 1,000 years if it was not one of many independent manifestations committed solely to Alisa III. I can postulate that Dark Force can foresee and manipulate future events as it sees fit. Of course, failing to destroy the Alisa III seems kind of a stupid lose-lose scenario for Dark Force, so maybe this specific incarnation didn't spend enough time in the oven. The PSIII Dark Force was the easiest to kill, after all. Or maybe ending its own life became an undesirable action and allowed the heroes to win so that it could live to haunt them another day. That's what I'll put my money on.

In any event, PSIV firmly establishes that Dark Force is created by the Profound Darkness. It is a piece of itself that works to destroy Algol for its own freedom. It does thrive on anger, hatred, pain and suffering, but it does not simply manifest itself from these things alone. That is why Dark Force only appears once every 1,000 years in Algol, because that is when the seal is weak. The Great Collapse would be enough to create a legion of Dark Forces alone if that were true.

[BenoitRen]

During the ending of PSII, the Earth people on Noah acknowledge the errors of their ways, of being responsible for their planet's destruction. Such a devastating admission of guilt would not commit an entire people to repeat their same mistakes, would not make them willingly commit to their nature as an evil destructive force, like locusts (Earth locusts, not those orange things with claws and weird penises). The Earth's peoples intentions were good.

I don't think it's the same thing when they were being influenced by Dark Falz while committing those errors. Dark Falz doesn't just go away.

Your dissertation also fails to account for Mother Brain's negative policy. Space and sea travel being banned. Also, if we're to believe that AW 1283 or AW 1284 is when the seal weakens, most of Mother Brain's malevolent (lack of) actions could not occur under the guidance of a new Dark Falz.

In any event, PSIV firmly establishes that Dark Force is created by the Profound Darkness. It is a piece of itself that works to destroy Algol for its own freedom.

The Japanese script doesn't say it's a piece of it, just pure hatred.

It does thrive on anger, hatred, pain and suffering, but it does not simply manifest itself from these things alone. That is why Dark Force only appears once every 1,000 years in Algol, because that is when the seal is weak. The Great Collapse would be enough to create a legion of Dark Forces alone if that were true.

No, because the habitants of Algol weren't evil and didn't harbor hatred.

[TigerNightmare]

I don't think it's the same thing when they were being influenced by Dark Falz while committing those errors. Dark Falz doesn't just go away.

Your dissertation also fails to account for Mother Brain's negative policy. Space and sea travel being banned. Also, if we're to believe that AW 1283 or AW 1284 is when the seal weakens, most of Mother Brain's malevolent (lack of) actions could not occur under the guidance of a new Dark Falz.

As far as we know, Dark Force disappears for 1,000 years at a time. PSI takes place during AW 342. PSII specifically says it's been "over 1,000 years" since Alisa and co. defeated Lashiec, which is an impossible inaccuracy, since PSII takes place during AW 1284. According to the library at Central Tower in Paseo in PSII (on my retranslation rom), Mother Brain was installed on AW 845, well before it was even remotely possible for a new Dark Force to emerge from The Edge. Also according to the Central Tower library, the accident that created the biological hazards occurred two years prior. Since this is the start of the major problems that had a real threat to the new way of life, we should assume that Dark Force arrived sometime around AW 1282. Having Dark Force appear in AW 282 also works for the timeline. According to psalgo.com, Lashiec was appointed to replace the previous king in AW 327. Lashiec was also known as a benevolent king for a period of time before changing. Let's say, due to lack of data during this time, that Dark Force's influence over Lashiec began in 335. Dark Force probably spent the previous 52 years creating monsters or setting up the events that lead to Lashiec's rise to power, sensing a darkness within him that he was able to keep hidden, that he overcompensated for his entire life, until Dark Force brought it to the surface.

As for space and sea travel being banned, maybe it really was for the safety of the people. The Earth people probably knew very little about interplanetary travel and their system was ill-equipped to handle the traffic. The collision over Dezoris sparked a panic and space travel ended. This was only in AW 1274. NASA's space shuttle program was grounded for three years after the Challenger explosion, based on the fate of only one ship. The ban on sea travel was probably something similar, people drowning, kids stealing boats for joy rides and getting lost at sea. You know how it is. Some stupid kid blinds his brother and suddenly you can't buy lawn darts anymore. It's just the difference between an imperfect government and an imperfect government controlled by a cold, calculating machine.

The Japanese script doesn't say it's a piece of it, just pure hatred.

Which version of the script says that? The May 30 1994 prototype on this website (the earliest known English translation prototype) shows this:
Le Roof
Throughout the passage of time, 'The Profound Darkness' has been seething with animosity and revenge. And, once every thousand years when there is a weakening in the strength of the seal, the intensified revengeful spirit would finally break away from 'The Profound Darkness' and would come to Algo in a physical form. That form is Dark Force...

So, I don't know where you're getting that Dark Force can be created outside the Profound Darkness' power if this is what it says in the script. This version should be the purest Engrish version there is and fairly close to the original. It seems really doubtful that this early draft would differ so greatly from the original Japanese.

No, because the habitants of Algol weren't evil and didn't harbor hatred.

Extremely untrue. If the people of Algol were not corruptible, Dark Force would be powerless. Take a look at the first subquest in PSII. Eusis and Nei arrive in Arima to discover that it was firebombed by "scoundrels" from Shure. Most of the men died, most of the women were kidnapped. The survivors are only waiting around to die. One of the kidnap victims was Tiem. Her father, Darum, turned to a life of murderous thievery in order to pay for the ransom. He was so far gone by the time Tiem was returned to him that he just killed her indiscriminately for not yielding to his threats. Dark Force had nothing to do with this storyline at all. A group of men were just greedy and disgusting and their evil spread to a helpless father. This is probably the greatest example of the potential to corrupt Algolian peoples. There's also the rampant racism between the three races. Even our heroes can be less than noble. Remember Alys extorting money from Hahn? What about what's his name who wanted to send some hunters to their death just to save a bunch of rappies? Dark Force is not the root of all evil. Dark Force only takes advantage of the evil within.

[BenoitRen]

Which version of the script says that? The May 30 1994 prototype on this website (the earliest known English translation prototype) shows this

The Japanese script, not some English prototype version. I pasted a quote in this thread, here it is again:

And so, at certain times, when the seal had grown weak, The Profound Darkness’ pent-up hate separated from its base, took on form, and made its way to Algol. And that, of course, was "Dark Force".

Check out Algol's genesis, Japanese version.

Extremely untrue. If the people of Algol were not corruptible, Dark Force would be powerless.

I didn't say they weren't corruptible. I said they weren't like the Earthmen who enjoyed toying with their planet.

You claim Dark Falz didn't come from Earth, but you don't explain its presence on Earth as evidenced by the Earthmen's speech.

[TigerNightmare]

The Japanese script, not some English prototype version. I pasted a quote in this thread, here it is again:

And so, at certain times, when the seal had grown weak, The Profound Darkness’ pent-up hate separated from its base, took on form, and made its way to Algol. And that, of course, was "Dark Force".

Check out Algol's genesis, Japanese version.

No offense to any of the translation contributors, but it was not done by someone fully fluent in both languages and there were still question marks all over the place. Why is one more acceptable than the other? I'm not saying your version is wrong, just that it's not more right than what ended up in the cartridge and no way to know for sure without a professional linguist.

All I'm seeing in that quote and that thread, however accurate it may be, is that Dark Force is the physical manifestation of The Profound Darkness' hate. It doesn't say anything about Dark Force also being able to manifest from the hatred of Terrans, Parmans or anything else that's not a god.

I didn't say they weren't corruptible. I said they weren't like the Earthmen who enjoyed toying with their planet.

So, you're telling me you didn't say this?

No, because the habitants of Algol weren't evil and didn't harbor hatred.

You claim Dark Falz didn't come from Earth, but you don't explain its presence on Earth as evidenced by the Earthmen's speech.

I did in my original post, actually. I talked about how the text says that Dark Force is a gift from their world to ours and what that says to me is that Dark Force is a gift from them and the wording does not specifically limit Dark Force's origins to Earth. If the wording was more like, "This is Dark Force, a great weapon from Earth," then maybe your argument would have two legs to stand on.

[BenoitRen]

No offense to any of the translation contributors, but it was not done by someone fully fluent in both languages and there were still question marks all over the place.

So you're resorting to FUD? Paul Jensen seems quite fluent to me.

All I'm seeing in that quote and that thread, however accurate it may be, is that Dark Force is the physical manifestation of The Profound Darkness' hate. It doesn't say anything about Dark Force also being able to manifest from the hatred of Terrans, Parmans or anything else that's not a god.

Hate is not exclusive to the Profound Darkness, and the script doesn't have to state that Dark Force can be formed by hate of other beings for it to be a logical conclusion.

So, you're telling me you didn't say this?

You don't have to be evil to be corruptable. As for harboring hate, I guess that was poor wording on my part, but I meant to compare Parmanians and Earthmen. The Earthmen were far more vile than Parmanians ever were.

I did in my original post, actually. I talked about how the text says that Dark Force is a gift from their world to ours and what that says to me is that Dark Force is a gift from them and the wording does not specifically limit Dark Force's origins to Earth.

You explained the Pandora's Box sequence, but you didn't explain the Earthmen's speech, which I quoted on the same damn page:

We knew the evil force, Dark Farusu, existed in our minds, but was unable to suppress it.

[TigerNightmare]

Hate is not exclusive to the Profound Darkness, and the script doesn't have to state that Dark Force can be formed by hate of other beings for it to be a logical conclusion.

Madness! If the script does not say this, it is not possible. You only have one line to base this on and it's sketchy enough as it is. You might as well say The Great Light kept splitting into lesser entities and fighting itself for all eternity since it already did that once. You need evidence.

You don't have to be evil to be corruptable. As for harboring hate, I guess that was poor wording on my part, but I meant to compare Parmanians and Earthmen. The Earthmen were far more vile than Parmanians ever were.

While the overall theme of the PSII ending is that of a cautionary morality tale and the nature of man (from Earth), it's a bit of a copout to say that Parmanians are immune to the same darkness. There were wars before the games started. The Darum and Tiem story was an excellent example. Mother Brain may have caused the power surge that created Neifirst, but it was the scientists that tried to kill her that turned her into a vengeful monster and it was her human side that allowed her to feel these things.

It's also no coincidence that Parmanians look exactly like us. Alien or whatever, they are parallels just like Star Trek. You can have space aliens that are blue with six arms and ten boobs, but they're still gonna be all emo about love, death, honor and revenge. In Final Fantasy IV, for example, Zeromus' final words were about being able to exist because evil in the hearts of people will always be present. In the Tower of Anger, the answer to defeating the guardian was not to fight it, to fight anger, but to accept it. Gryz's only motivation was bloodlust for revenge. Shir/Shilka is a bloody thief.

Evil is an abstract that's very much open for interpretation. The bad guy from PSIV was only called The Profound Darkness because Le Roof was created to call it that by the Great Light. From its point of view, the Algol people are evil. It gains strength from their anguish because they are its prison. Their lone purpose is to keep its prison locked. Who's to say the so-called Great Light isn't running around somewhere blowing up habitated planets for fun?

You explained the Pandora's Box sequence, but you didn't explain the Earthmen's speech, which I quoted on the same damn page:

We knew the evil force, Dark Farusu, existed in our minds, but was unable to suppress it.

I think you're taking this quote too literally. I also looked at the page of this translation you linked to and it was all over the place.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha!! Welcome to the ultimate trap, the Pandora's box! Inside it contains the force of darkness that you call the Dark False. This is our little gift to your world from us!

This version doesn't reference at all that Dark Force is from Earth, just that it's a gift from them.

And here is that entire passage, with some questionable things bolded by me:

By looking at it now, we must regret that we were fools. We knew the evil force, Dark Farusu, existed in our minds, but was unable to suppress it. We soon began to grow fond of controlling the natural world through scientific means. We only recognized we were killing ourselves when the planet began to crumble before our very own eyes. The survivors, which you see now, barely made it to this ship and escaped. We wondered hopelessly through the universe searching for another home. Then we found Algol, your star system. We gloated over your peaceful lives, your lives without the presence of evil. That was when we vowed to ourselves to take over your star system no matter what it took. Soon, we were able to destroy your planet of Parma. Certainly you are no fools to oppose us with such a powerful force, are you not? You shall now die for us and for our future.

I can simply go the FUD route, as you call it and dismiss inexplicably, but aside from the grammatical issues and poor/wrong choice of words, the underlined part is an outright contradiction. Why would they destroy what they want to rule? They also could have used Climatrol to flood both planets a long time ago, but I'm thinking their corruption, their true corruption by Dark Force, had them change their original vision of peaceful assimilation. It just doesn't make any damn sense otherwise. We were fools and our planet got destroyed because of it, so we're gonna do it again? This whole part demands a rewrite and hopefully the holes and logistical issues were properly retconned in PSg2, just like PSIV retconned whatever business doesn't work with Le Roof's definitive story.

The origin of Dark Force simply cannot be Earth because its existence in PSI predates the arrival of Noah by about 500 years. The whole theme of the ending of PSII just doesn't fit with your Dark Force is from Earth theory either. Is man inherently bad or does Dark Force make man bad? Pick one.

[BenoitRen]

Madness! If the script does not say this, it is not possible. You only have one line to base this on and it's sketchy enough as it is.

Yet it's this same line that you base your argument on Dark Falz' origin on. It's an important line, for sure.

The script doesn't need to outright state it. I recommend a course in logic.

While the overall theme of the PSII ending is that of a cautionary morality tale and the nature of man (from Earth), it's a bit of a copout to say that Parmanians are immune to the same darkness.

If you'd bothered to read what I was saying, you'll notice that I wasn't saying that.

There were wars before the games started.

If you choose to believe the weird backstory the Compendium added, yes. It even got the origin of the Profound Darkness and the Great Light wrong. I don't put much weight on what it adds to the universe.

Evil is an abstract that's very much open for interpretation. The bad guy from PSIV was only called The Profound Darkness because Le Roof was created to call it that by the Great Light. From its point of view, the Algol people are evil. It gains strength from their anguish because they are its prison. Their lone purpose is to keep its prison locked.

Yeah, yeah, history is written by the victors, yadda yadda. You're forgetting that this is still a video game, not a novel. Besides, there's plenty of evidence to support the fact that the Profound Darkness is evil.

Who's to say the so-called Great Light isn't running around somewhere blowing up habitated planets for fun?

Now this is a valid point. But it's still a video game story, so I doubt it.

I think you're taking this quote too literally. I also looked at the page of this translation you linked to and it was all over the place.

Too literally? Dark Falz' name is right there.

I can simply go the FUD route, as you call it and dismiss inexplicably, but aside from the grammatical issues and poor/wrong choice of words, the underlined part is an outright contradiction.

It says pretty much the same thing as the official English translation.

This whole part demands a rewrite and hopefully the holes and logistical issues were properly retconned in PSg2,

It only demands a rewrite in your opinion because you don't like it/can't accept it. The Earthmen were evil, plain and simple.

I doubt PSG2 counts as a proper retcon anyway. It's a low-budget remake that the original team was barely involved with.

just like PSIV retconned whatever business doesn't work with Le Roof's definitive story.

Like what? Please don't tell me you also believe that PSIII was retconned.

The origin of Dark Force simply cannot be Earth because its existence in PSI predates the arrival of Noah by about 500 years.

I fail to see how this is related.

The whole theme of the ending of PSII just doesn't fit with your Dark Force is from Earth theory either. Is man inherently bad or does Dark Force make man bad? Pick one.

Man allowed itself to become evil, that evil created a Dark Falz, man was further corrupted by Dark Falz, and then led to Algol. So it's a bit of both.

[Zucca]

There is a possibility that DF is from our Solar system.
But DF created from "evil thoughts" seems to be too far fetched.
At least no dialogue really tells that clearly enough.
It seems to me that some of the lines Earthmen leader says aren't to be taken literally.

I'd like to see more references...

[BenoitRen]

But DF created from "evil thoughts" seems to be too far fetched.

Yet that's exactly how the Profound Darkness creates them.