MMORPGs?

[Neo48]

I support Seizaku in his belief of Wikipedia, haha. The problem isn't with the infromation but instead with people who do not know how to cite sources. This is what makes any point taken from a Wiki questionable. Not saying anything here is wrong, just saying that I reccomened finding confirmation sources for all your future endeavors.

Yes, PSU does have massive servers where all the current players can reside. All the players of PSU could join up at the central fountain and have a dance party. That is MMORPG interaction.

However, I have no doubt some of you will argue how persistent this interaction is. Since everyone can't go on a mission.

So perhaps this problems aren't our beliefs, but the deffinition of MMORPG itself. Perhaps another category, PMMORPG, is required; P being for persistent. But will that ever happen?

The area of Online RPGing is so broad that the idea of fitting so many under one roof is ridiculous. Comparing Diablo and PSO is unfair because PSO had character lobby interaction and Diablo had chat rooms. Isn't this in istelf a big enough reason to say they are no longer similar?

If anything, PSO and PSU are between games like Diablo and World of Warcraft.

Which leads to 3 groups of categories already and only 3 games discussed! Crazy indeed.

MMORPG is perhaps another way of saying "this game allows you to interact with others from around the world under a self-created persona".

[BenoitRen]

Seizaku, you repeatedly fail to counter my points, and repeat your original points.

A lot of people connecting to a server does not make an MMO. Is IRC an MMO, or what? No, because it isn't a game.

PSO's lobbies are graphical IRC channels, as noted before. An MMO is a lot of people interacting with each other through gameplay. A lobby dance is just graphical fodder.

Just discrediting Wikipedia will not automatically make what's on it untrue unless you can prove otherwise.

Sorry but in my area of expertise (history, that is what I study at college) I'm tired of noticing many inaccuracies and misstatements, and people from other areas (such as physics, biology, chemistry among others) have come to say the same thing about wikipedia. I take everything it says with a grain... or maybe a whole spoon of salt.

Have you actually tried to edit such pages, or do you just complain about Wikipedia every time it's brought up? Obviously it will have flaws since everyone can edit it. But if you only bash it, it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Seizaku]

Seizaku, you repeatedly fail to counter my points, and repeat your original points.

And you're doing the same thing, we both have points and don't want to give up them, thats a normal thing in a discussion.

PSO's lobbies are graphical IRC channels, as noted before. An MMO is a lot of people interacting with each other through gameplay. A lobby dance is just graphical fodder.

But that's what make a game different from a chat, the graphic interface through a virtual persona and the interaction this new interface brings, to quote Neo48. I have spent hours seated on a city chatting through a MMORPG (ragnarok online), that moment the game just became an IRC, but it didn't changed the fact it was a game and not a chat program. You still can go into a mission in PSO/PSU and start to chat after you cleaned an area of the map, by your point the whole game is just a giant chat.

A Chat element is a common thing on any MMORPG, it helps the interaction of the game and adds more to the multiplayer element of the game, it doesn't take the value of the product as it is, a game.

Have you actually tried to edit such pages, or do you just complain about Wikipedia every time it's brought up? Obviously it will have flaws since everyone can edit it. But if you only bash it, it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Yeah, I've been a member of Axis History forum and some members teamed up to clean the articles about WWII, quoting reliable (i.e. non-revisionists, document based authors) sources and all, but other 'wikipedia people' came up, removed the corrections and placed new content with wrong data and without backing it. After four months we gave up as it became an useless effort.

[BenoitRen]

But that's what make a game different from a chat, the graphic interface through a virtual persona and the interaction this new interface brings, to quote Neo48.

It's not gameplay interaction. You're communicating. You aren't playing the actual game as long as you're in the lobby.

When you play offline, you don't need to team up, so you go directly to the actual game. No lobbies to be found.

Reinforcing my point is that there are IM clients out there with 3D interfaces and animated avatars.

You still can go into a mission in PSO/PSU and start to chat after you cleaned an area of the map, by your point the whole game is just a giant chat.

Talking about MMO or not is moot in that example, because then you're in a world with maximum 4/6 people.

Yeah, I've been a member of Axis History forum and some members teamed up to clean the articles about WWII, quoting reliable (i.e. non-revisionists, document based authors) sources and all, but other 'wikipedia people' came up, removed the corrections and placed new content with wrong data and without backing it. After four months we gave up as it became an useless effort.

I would keep reverting the article to the last edit you made, until it would become noticed as a conflict, which would force both parties to resolve the conflict. Reverting takes only a couple seconds once you know how to do it (it's not immediately obvious).

[Neo48]

PSO's lobbies are graphical IRC channels, as noted before. An MMO is a lot of people interacting with each other through gameplay. A lobby dance is just graphical fodder.

Ah yes, more points that make online games broad. A lobby dance may be fodder to some but others might enjoy it (its not my cup of tea however). But does that discredit it as gameplay? How about we switch it up then. Move those dancers to the GRM shop so they can all grind their weapons in the same persistent space at the same time. It is doable in PSU and it involves aspects of the gameplay. But that is opinionated because how can any group of people all decide what aspects make up gameplay? If one feels that they must all be fighting monsters in order to be an MMORPG then the definition itself is entirely flawed because that could mean that a game that puts you immediately into a battle zone with random people where you can chat but has no outside lobbies or shops or if need be, dancing fountains, is the deffinitive of MMORPG.

[The HuBBs]

Titan's quest is just like PSU and its not called an mmo. The game only earns its genre is thru the company who names it. In this case Sega decides to try and draw us in with a phoney "MMORPG" tag. Guild Wars hoever could be called out as its similar to PSU and PSO(virtual lobbies that do not connect to the game world. gamewqorld doesn't change of effected whatsoever), but it maintains its "Massive multiplayer" status thru its PVP system.

PSU has nothng massive about it. Interaction lobbies do not enhance the multiplayer aspect or effect the game in any major way. Its just there to wait around to form a small party for dungeon crawling which is what PSU is. A dungeon crawling online rpg.

[BenoitRen]

A lobby dance may be fodder to some but others might enjoy it (its not my cup of tea however).

Sure they might enjoy it. Maybe fodder isn't the right word. It's just something that looks nice on the screen.

But does that discredit it as gameplay?

Are you in a game world when you're doing this? No.
Does it contribute to playing the game/reaching your goal? No.
Is the goal of the game to dance together? No.

[Seizaku]

It's not gameplay interaction. You're communicating. You aren't playing the actual game as long as you're in the lobby.

When you play offline, you don't need to team up, so you go directly to the actual game. No lobbies to be found.

Reinforcing my point is that there are IM clients out there with 3D interfaces and animated avatars.

And communication stopped being a form of interaction since when? In most games when you're in chat friendly environment you're also not playing the game, and even when you're in a mission you can just sent a message to someone who is far from you.

Also such IM clients are IM clients and not games, they were made with only communication in mind, they aren't like such games that think in both gameplay and interaction, there is where you trace the line.

I would keep reverting the article to the last edit you made, until it would become noticed as a conflict, which would force both parties to resolve the conflict. Reverting takes only a couple seconds once you know how to do it (it's not immediately obvious).

If we had the free time to, but we have more important things to do, such as researching and debating. We're now just correcting the misstatements that people bring to the forum and advising people to check the sources before believing in anything in wikipedia.

Titan's quest is just like PSU and its not called an mmo.

Titan Quest don't have anything like a lobby, you have to open a server and it can only supports up to 7 people at the same time and it wasn't conceived with the idea of many (up to the hundreds and beyond) players connected to a single server. I understand that you compare the system of making your server with the system of creating a party of PSO, but in this game you can just interact with that close knit of people where PSO/PSU lobby opens the opportunity of interaction outside of that environment.

Are you in a game world when you're doing this? No.
Does it contribute to playing the game/reaching your goal? No.
Is the goal of the game to dance together? No.

Well, you're in the game, the lobby is part of the game you want it or not and it's use for another purpose than just chatting in PSU, you can sell/buy items and interact with people in that enviroment, that was the goal of the enviroment in the purpose of the game. It's silly to think that the purpose of a MMO is just going to killing monsters around, otherwise there wouldn't have any reason to have a place where people can interact or include a chat system, it also wouldn't need to be neither massive and/or online either.

The game only earns its genre is thru the company who names it. In this case Sega decides to try and draw us in with a phoney "MMORPG" tag. Guild Wars hoever could be called out as its similar to PSU and PSO(virtual lobbies that do not connect to the game world. gamewqorld doesn't change of effected whatsoever), but it maintains its "Massive multiplayer" status thru its PVP system.

Yeah, then by this definition, Guild wars is not a MMORPG because ncsoft doesn't call it a MMORPG, even if has every single aspect of a MMORPG and everyone agrees that it is a MMORPG to the point it won the award of MMORPG of the Year. I believe PSU falls into the category and many people agree with that (though you are not among this many), Sega labeled the game as a MMORPG, then by the definition it is a MMORPG.

Really, I already see this discussion going to nowhere... >_> Really, there's no standard formula for a MMO, there are many aspects that can be changed and the game still will be a MMO in the end (even if the the producer like to call it a 'super-duper-whatever-online' just for the sake of being different). If you don't want to see it this way, ok, you have the right to your opinion but it doesn't change the fact that the game at its core is a MMO.

[BenoitRen]

And communication stopped being a form of interaction since when?

It's not gameplay interaction. If you want it to be such, go play Typing of the Dead.

Also such IM clients are IM clients and not games, they were made with only communication in mind, they aren't like such games that think in both gameplay and interaction, there is where you trace the line.

Even when the IM client and the PSO lobby do the same things? At least admit that it's not as clear cut as you claim it to be.

If we had the free time to, but we have more important things to do, such as researching and debating.

You have time to post here at PS Cave. Then you have time to spend one minute at most reverting an article.

It's silly to think that the purpose of a MMO is just going to killing monsters around, otherwise there wouldn't have any reason to have a place where people can interact or include a chat system, it also wouldn't need to be neither massive and/or online either.

But that's what PSO is! A hack and slash RPG that allows you to team up with other players through an online connection. Which is why the lobby doesn't count.

If you don't want to see it this way, ok, you have the right to your opinion but it doesn't change the fact that the game at its core is a MMO.

You're not going to agree to disagree if at the end you say "but hey it's still fact that what I say is right".

[Seizaku]

It's not gameplay interaction. If you want it to be such, go play Typing of the Dead.

Even when the IM client and the PSO lobby do the same things? At least admit that it's not as clear cut as you claim it to be.

But that's what PSO is! A hack and slash RPG that allows you to team up with other players through an online connection. Which is why the lobby doesn't count.

Then any form of chat inside of a game is not gameplay interaction and detracts the value of multiplayer? How ironic, a tool made for unite them and make them play together don't server as a support to gameplay the chat purpose is to make people interact and develop bonds through one common interest that is the game. You may be chatting but you're doing that in the game, you're using the same character you use to play, and talking with the same people that you could invite to play together in a party by just forming a party in that very same context. Is the lobby/city environment that make it a MMO, because you team up and interact inside the game with the hundreds of players online at the same time in that same server, and not in a outer-space (ie. a IRC-client or a forum).

You have time to post here at PS Cave. Then you have time to spend one minute at most reverting an article.

If I'm doing something in the spare time while I'm not winning anything, then its better be something I enjoy doing. I felt no longer pleasure in doing that in my spare time, it was no more constructive and/or funny, and no, at the time I didn't knew how to revert the article. Like right now, I just finished a book report, and I'm tired, I just came here to relax a bit (yeah, debates relax me), and the last thing I want to do now is going through a crusade to identify errors and find references to correct those errors.

You're not going to agree to disagree if at the end you say "but hey it's still fact that what I say is right".

What I'm saying is that even trying to consider the thing by your point of view (even if you don't believe me, I'm trying) I can't agree with you and still think that by all aspects it is a MMO.

[Lord Khyron]

Hey.. In lots of Korean MMORPGS, unless you KILL monsters or journey with friends, NOTHING in the game changes. Not the server, world or land..

Everytime you enter a map or area, the monsters spawn in the exact same places. Nothing changes.

The world only changes when the player changes it. Thus fulfilling his ROLE.

[Neo48]

Are you in a game world when you're doing this? No.
Does it contribute to playing the game/reaching your goal? No.
Is the goal of the game to dance together? No.

See, that is the problem with defining gameplay. It is all opinionated. A characteristic of many good RPGs is to give options of what to do when playing the game. Some people may see lobby dancing as a good "gameplay" option.

Personally, I see lobbies as part of the game world because some people will see that as fitting the (sorry, this will sound a little RPG-hardcore) life of their character. It even is kind of pleasing to have an area of solitude after a hard fought area.

But from your preferences, it appears that you like my original deffinition of an MMORPG: A game that can house as many characters that are online in a area that involves (going to try and keep this broad still) completing a task/quest/mission in order to achieve reward.

Although, another definition could be: An ORPG that has areas that allow massive participation and chat, not just questing.

I kind of believe it, kind of don't. But really, unless you have text definitions for "game world" and "gameplay" then they will be opinionated unfortunately. Like Seizaku said, Guild Wars recieved best MMORPG of the year and it is pretty much the same idea as PSU. No one can choose what aspects they feel are gameplay and game world. Sure, every game has an obvious goal but that doesn't have to be the only aspect of its gameplay or game world (and yes, that is an opinion).

[Abominae]

As defined by Wikipedia


Phantasy Star Online: Genre(s) Action RPG

World of Warcraft: Genre(s) Fantasy MMORPG

Yes, as a matter of fact, I am well aware that this is contradictory to my previous post. Sadly, I just don't feel this is a big enough issue to bother with, and certainly not nearly as much as the posts on this thread have gone to argue the point.

[thriwren]

MMORpg is in a grey area, I have not seen a good "set" example of what one should be.

[Abominae]

Honestly though, does it really matter? I'd look it up on Sega's site and see what they have it listed as if I really cared enough about what it actually is. Some call The Legend of Zelda an action game, others an adventure game. I just call it a great game.